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Post by Tuism on Jul 10, 2012 16:31:03 GMT -5
With the advent of the new awesome set, many of us have come to enjoy the new strategic options.
However at the same time it feels like the pool of "viable" cards became smaller as a lot of the new power totally outclasses the older cards, even the better cards became meh.
When the first set of balancing came in the last time, some major changes like making Lanz and Cesare manageable made the entire game a better place for many other cards.
Which cards do you feel are way underpowered now, and why?
Discuss! Go!
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Post by naz387 on Jul 10, 2012 17:59:22 GMT -5
A few cards off the top of my head (I am going off the assumption of cards that were used fairly often to now almost non-existent):
1. Art Gallery - I saw opponents use this card in a fair amount of games, but I do not think i have seen anyone play this card since the revelations update.
2. Scientific Espionage - I saw this card run very often by players, but now I do not see it as often, I attribute this to all of cheaper counter options.
3. Merchant's Guild - This was a pretty effective strategy, but I have not encountered it lately.
4. Carneval - I used to see this, but I think I have encountered this card like once in the last month.
These are my observations, so I could be mistaken. Seems everyone is running a counter-site or counter-suleiman deck nowadays.
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Post by Brontobeuf on Jul 10, 2012 20:35:58 GMT -5
*** TOP 10 of the most UNDERPOWERED CARDS by your good old Bronto!!! ***
*10* Plentiful Crop If you want your deck to be slow, play it instead of Den Defense.
*9* High-profile Assassination Even in a ressource destruction deck you need your deck to be competitive. For 7, playing Condotierro Tactics seems always a stronger choice. But anti-agents solutions are so much stronger and numerous in Crime decks that I don't see the point of playing this one.
*8* Village Chapel Come on... it's not even a Sanctuary. Why would you play it now?
*7* Faithful Monk Never saw him played, and I can bet I will never see him played.
*6* Passing the Torch You have so many different options in Media to ruin sites influence that I don't see the point of this one. Paying 4 to have all sites getting -2? I can pay 5 to have them all reduced to 0 or play the Poet and get an Agent on the field.
*5* Janissary Justice Ok, it can make you win a game if Saturn and Pluto are aligned by the 2nd day of the month. But when you compare it with other 11-cost cards it's just pure crap. I tried (and failed) to build a deck based on some influence rush in Order/Scholar and this card is not even good in it.
*4* Hasty Move This card would be great great if it was a surprise. But as it is right now, it's not good at all. In the same faction, we got better for our own sites, or better for opposing sites depending on what you need.
*3* Benefactor Villa Even against an Abbazia Agents based Faith deck, this card would just be bad. It can't be used for combos either. Make it cost 1 and I'd still not play it.
*2* Francesco Troche What a Noble!! Give him something... right now he's the less attractive Noble ever. No power, no ressource boost, expensive, only 3atk... I don't know what to say for his defense. :]
*1* Borgia Mine The card is just overpriced by 1. In all factions, even Crime and Media, you will a site that is stronger and/or cheaper than this one. To be short on influence or ressource boosts to the point that you need to play Borgia Mines just can't be (even in pure Gold).
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Post by jeremyat on Jul 10, 2012 20:41:07 GMT -5
The one deck that really seems to have been demolished is the copydeck. Probably one of the best decks prior to the expansion, it has now been laid to waste because of Piri. I think a lot of slower-developing decks are gone because you have to be able to deal with uncounterable sites and the 11-cost combos. You can't wait to set up your Leos because your opponent may have dropped an Into the Light deceptive site onto Gimignano by turn three and it's over.
I'll put it this way--Ezio Assassin was one of the most sought-after cards prior to the expansion. Now he's waaaaaay too slow, too expensive, and really only useful in a mentor deck (and even then not all that helpful). There's just too much risk in playing Ezio, Leo, etc. because of how long they take to develop. Virtually every deck now needs to have speed in one fashion or another--be it counter, site rush, agent rush, or surprise. The old bad bosses have been vanquished.
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Post by Brontobeuf on Jul 10, 2012 20:46:23 GMT -5
I have 3 Ezio Assassin in my main deck! \o/ The guy is just perfect against Piri because he can't be countered by Scientific Espionnage (and with the Mentor he's even greater).
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Post by Altaem on Jul 10, 2012 23:39:31 GMT -5
I have 5 Janissary Justice in my main deck. Probably only works because I'm in a league below you guys and always assume losses against forum members.
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felixschroeter
Full Member
Game Center Name: felixschroeter
Posts: 208
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Post by felixschroeter on Jul 10, 2012 23:46:01 GMT -5
Ha, Bronto, I just love your TOP 10 of garbage! Very insightful!
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Post by Tuism on Jul 11, 2012 0:48:39 GMT -5
Cool discussion guys Bronto's top 10 could be extended to the top 30 at least those are the throwaway cards, and then there are what should be decent but just not, like: Thieves - powerful on paper but never really good enough in practice. Leo's, ezios, other bosses - like was mentioned, theyre much less edfective now. I don't think they're useless, but there are simply much better options most of the time, and they're rubbished too easily. Non-surprises are badly hurt, as everyone is playing counters. I feel there's too much emphasis on having counters vs having surprises. Sites (led by stronghold and the red counters and gimignano with deception etc) are now super powered, also because; Coupled with extremely good income boosting options in all colors - so both in quality and quantity (so many to choose from) Which results in pure rush having a bad day because resource rush beats the crap outta them with purely better cards on almost no card disadvantage. What kinda balancing do you guys wanna see?
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Post by Tuism on Jul 11, 2012 0:55:02 GMT -5
Btw, my thoughts on specific cards: Borgia mine - I don't know how to make this one better but kept fair, as it IS a gold card. If we better it thereby giving every deck more than one quiet chapel, then I'd rather not. Hat, give it defender? Janissary justice: utter shite. Should the discard influence be upped to 2? Art gallery: disagree that it's become useless - the stronghold just laughs at it, though. Sci ESP: still amazing card, especially since its pairable with piri. It's just that now people have options in surprises that it can't counter and steal EVERYTHING. I like where it's sitting now Always thought hasty move should be a surprise. But I'd use behind closed doors if I had to anyway.
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Post by thest4lker on Jul 11, 2012 1:19:48 GMT -5
Totally agree with Tuism about SCI ESP. It is not underpowered, but probably right where it should be. The complaint used to be that it was overpowered... well, now it still does what it says, but there are options to work around it/neutralise it. Power card, but can be worked around = good balance
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Post by UnCL0NED on Jul 11, 2012 2:46:08 GMT -5
My grind deck at the moment is a Mercenary Guild based deck! Not underpowered at all. I am pretty sure this deck is just in the beginning stages of becoming even better... (will post it after this reply ) It's what Tuism & thest4lker say about Scientific Espionage: It's right where it should be. And I think more cards are balanced now, because of the new expansion. A lot of the cards mentioned by Bronto are indeed underpowered. But not necessarily because of the new expansion. One card I do have hope for is Janissary Justice (don't underestimate Dominant in the mid/late game). I am working on a copy deck with this "Bomb" card, and it's doing okay already, but it is still work in progress... Anyway... I really think it is too early to have this type of discussion. A lot of these cards mentioned are not dead/underpowered at all. People just need to rethink their decks...
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felixschroeter
Full Member
Game Center Name: felixschroeter
Posts: 208
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Post by felixschroeter on Jul 11, 2012 3:08:46 GMT -5
Hey UnCLONED, I agree with your defending Mercenary Guild. I think lost against your Guild deck the other day. Looked quite competitive to me and used a great combo. I'm not sure how hard it is to set it up, though.
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Post by Brontobeuf on Jul 11, 2012 3:13:32 GMT -5
Quick ideas... just food for thoughts.
Suleiman - Cost 6. Assassin Stronghold - Now has DEFENDER. Abbazia - Can't target the same card it just discarded. Palazzo Della Signoria - Cost 2. Draw a memory.
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Post by UnCL0NED on Jul 11, 2012 3:23:14 GMT -5
Hey UnCLONED, I agree with your defending Mercenary Guild. I think lost against your Guild deck the other day. Looked quite competitive to me and used a great combo. I'm not sure how hard it is to set it up, though. Hey Felix, I remember I played you with this deck, yesterday. Just posted the deck in the Fun&Concept area: acreedrecollection.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=fun&action=display&thread=1728&page=1If you have suggestions to smoothen out the set-up, please reply there. Thanks
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Post by ironcladtrash on Jul 11, 2012 19:50:57 GMT -5
I can not think of any reason to ever use Plentiful Crop anymore, the card is completely useless now.
Lassitude doesn't seem to be that effective any more. The agents that do get played are usually there to support sites, or they get power bonuses quickly.
I play a lot of discard and it now seems to have a lot more disadvantages but not just because you obviously don't want to discard an opponents 11 cost card. Holy Day can take care of that but the problem is you can get a decent starting hand that doesn't have Holy Day in it, but that's a big risk to take. You almost always have to swap starting hands if you don't get it. Even if you do, it could be a bad opening hand with Holy Day.
Discard is generally a slower strategy and now you can boost your income so quickly it's easier for the opponent to get their cards in play. It would be nice if there were some surprise discards, or get some cheaper cost ones that erase highest cost card.
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