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Post by Tuism on Jan 28, 2012 15:17:38 GMT -5
I think nerfing counters by removing the income is possibly a good idea... It already denies income, and removes any threat. So... But I think faux pas should be left as is, as it is basically a flavored resource booster that's useless mid/late game. The suggestion of removing thief from Lanz is very interesting - it'll encourage pure thief decks and remove splash Lanz decks... Which means played probably more like Lanz is supposed to be played. 1/1 with threat is great, he can continue attacking and remove enemy blockers if they choose to block him. Or, make him boost all other thiefs other than himself...so Lanz will only ever be useful in a splash situation if there are 2 of them, and even then it's less of an exponential growth like the Lanz army right now. I think if you removed the 3 Influence per region and kept it at 10 cost, animus reboot would be fine. Or make it 12 and keep the 3 influence. Both is a bit overkill and would make it a really difficult to place card. Citizen is a great change because it removes the possibility of them alone getting a lock. Paying a card a day to achieve a lock is a challenge. Having one card to discard 10 from your opponent is way overpowered. You can try get him early out and maybe grind a card or two or even 3 away before he's dead, or you can play another discard card. I didn't like playing with citizen before, it really felt likes cheating. This would make him interesting. And make cool use of the day/night thing
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3ndem1c
New Member
Do not rely on a bug, rely on your luck!
Posts: 35
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Post by 3ndem1c on Jan 28, 2012 17:03:51 GMT -5
Cesare Borgia 10, -, 5/5 Cesare Borgia resolves as a Surprise. Faux Pas 1, - Neutralize target launching Memory with cost 0 or 1. Court Order 4, - Neutralize target launching Memory. Preemptive Strike 6, - Neutralize target launching Memory. Draw a Memory. Cesare should at least have OFFICIAL. Why do you want to remove the +1 Gold from every Counter? I do not play any true income boosters like plentiful crop or forced inheritance anymore. All my gold comes from the counters( and I have a lot of them in my main deck). With these changes I would have to restructure my deck completely and this is something I don' t really want to do cos it's a good balance right now.
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Post by Tuism on Jan 28, 2012 17:24:09 GMT -5
Lol that is EXACTLY why they need to be removed. When you say balanced it actually means REALLY powerful. I know cos I run almost exactly the same deck. Wins all the time. *is* Boring. *is* overpowered.
I have nothing against other expertises getting some action. Been trying everything else, but the end result's always the same... Watching opponent's fastest resource booster in the game (inheritance) getting their gold to counter levels, then watch them counter a few things while their income gets to 10, Cesare, maybe a few Marcos or card draw or sudden exhaust in between.
And every deck has to either be that or anti that. It's getting REALLY old.
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Post by Raphael Majere on Jan 28, 2012 17:51:33 GMT -5
Wow, firstly, I am really happy to see Marc here! Welcome! I hope you are not too lost here! The depth of the analysis on game play, deck building, strategy is really extensive here, thanks to the great support given by everyone. Secondly, I like the proposed card errata a lot. The counters gets nerfed. The 5/5 agents are nerfed. It will create more balance. I think Daring experiment is fine as it is. Right now, Blue Order is dominant; most of the cards getting the nerf comes from blue. I play a Ancestral Discoveries + Preemptive Strikes deck (Keeps getting +1 + extra card draw) and it's very strong (Probably considered OP by my opponents!) and even I would agree with your proposed changes. I need to get back to work; but I will most certainly look through the list again and provide any further insights if I have any. Love the game and I really appreciate you and all the Ubi staff coming forward to engage us! Thanks! I read some of the users posts and thought about it. My own suggested changes, My own opinions: Judgment Day 0, - When you launch this Memory, lose all your Gold. Target Site or launching Site gets +1I for each 2G lost.Ok. Calling All Stand-Ins 0, - When you launch this Memory, lose all your Gold. Put a X/X virtual Militant with FIERCE in your HQ, if there is an empty slot. X is half the Gold lost.OkRoyal Intervention 0, - When you launch this Memory, lose all your Gold. Score 1 in target Region for each 2G lost. OKDaring Experiment 0, - When you launch this Memory, lose all your Gold. Draw a Memory for each 3G lost.I will keep it as it is. 2G. For Indepth, it gets 3 cards for 6G. For DE to match, it needs 8G, Plus it does not gain +1. I don't see this card being abused right now.Animus Reboot 12, - Erase all Agents and Sites. Your Score on each Region becomes 0. I would keep this at 10G.Devout Citizens 3, +1, 1/1 Pay 3: Opponent discards his Memory with the highest Cost (at random in case of a tie). Launch this ability only during daytime.I like this. Prevents the the discard lock. Pantheon 5, -, 1 Your Score in this Region becomes 0. If a player controls this Region, he wins the game. OK.Ezio Auditore, Assassin 10, -, 5/5 Neutralize target Agent or Site.
Rodrigo Borgia, Pope 10, -, 5/5 You regain Gold twice as fast.
Lorenzo de' Medici 10, -, 5/5 Lorenzo de' Medici gets +5/+5 if you have 20R or more.
Cesare Borgia 10, -, 5/5 Cesare Borgia resolves as a Surprise.
Leonardo da Vinci 10, -, 5/5 Draw 2 Memories.Yeah, the 5/5 agents should keep their 'flavor' abilities as Tuism suggested. Cunning for Leo, Fierce for Lorenzo, Threat for Ezio, Recover for Rodigo. Except for Cesare, just give him fierce, not official.
Biggest use of Cesare - a sudden blocker that kills opponents agent. And once that is done, he is used as a 'unblockable' agent to win. So if Official is removed, Cesare can be killed relatively realistically by 2 agents, a fair exchange with some gains in region via fierce. Lanz 5, -, 1/1 THREAT. When Lanz campaigns, your Thieves get +1/+1. Making him a Unique, i.e. only 1 in play, is a good idea. The Lanz stacking on Lanz is too much, right now. Maybe keep him at 3G, but make him "unique"? Faux Pas 1, - Neutralize target launching Memory with cost 0 or 1.I will keep the card as it is now; no change. as mentioned; this card is almost useless in late game.Court Order 4, - Neutralize target launching Memory.
Preemptive Strike 6, - Neutralize target launching Memory. Draw a Memory.+1, I like it. I would like to see people playing less of Order Counter deck (various configs) and more of other colors.
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Post by Tuism on Jan 28, 2012 20:53:03 GMT -5
After trying a few other decks tonight and about 10 games later, all I see are Lanz decks or counter decks. Occasional site decks were the only decks I could really beat. Consistently. It always come down to the same 3 questions: what do I pack to beat Lanz (tactless), what do I pack to beat Cesare (exhaustion), what do I pack to beat pan/ri (espionage).
Its difficult to innovate (desperately trying to get a Pietro Rossi or an ezio firenze deck competitive) when either you play the cookie cutter counters or lanzs or pack half your deck with answers to them, and hope you get them cos those decks have better tutors than you.
It's a problem. Those who say its not an issue are running the hell out of those issues and thinking "yes I rock".
I'm very happy that this is a digital game and not like magic where they gotta ban cards rather than making sure the game is fun overall.
Ahem, excuse me, venting a bit.
With this perspective, I welcome any and all nerf you guys have mentioned. Except animus reboot, I don't think it needs a double nerf, although comparing it to crime's targeted mass removal... It is very strong, in comparison.
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Post by Top Shelf on Jan 28, 2012 23:05:07 GMT -5
I like the proposed changes. A few weeks ago I build a Crime / Order deck with most of the cards listed here to be nerfed. It was clear that some cards, especially Cesare and Lanz, were dominating regardless of how synergistic they were with the rest of the deck.
I welcome the changes and am looking forward to a meta-game that values decks with greater synergies rather than dominate singular cards.
I'm thankful the dev team is leading the charge to make these changes as well as reaching out to the player community for feedback.
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Post by Tuism on Jan 29, 2012 4:26:03 GMT -5
I was just thinking about Cesare, and I would even go as far to remove his official... Yes that's his flavour, but people aren't using Cesare for his special ability of "surprise blocker" or even "surprise attacker"... He's just a uncounterable fireball. Direct damage that doesn't go away.
So I reckon, either he resolves as a surprise and has no official, or is official but no surprise resolve. The fierce is inconsequential for the most part as long as the other 2 aspect is toned down a bit.
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Post by The Rancord on Jan 29, 2012 8:10:08 GMT -5
Well, becuase most decks consist of coutner cesare is that strong. The problem is that I can mix him with counters. So I just bounce him out and everything my enemy tried to stop him I will counter, except sudden exhaustion.
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Post by Brontobeuf on Jan 29, 2012 12:19:51 GMT -5
You should read again the philosophy behind these changes before proposing your opinions there. It's all done to allow more strategies to work. What you call "ner"f is in fact a "buff" of everything in the game that is not a big 5/5, a X card or a counter. Right now, they *are* the best winning conditions and deserves to be nerfed. Yes, of course, it's a loss of flavor to lose "threat" on Ezio etc, but if we want Pietro Rossi to be on the same level than Cesare, things have to be done. I'm bored building decks thinking about the current metagame. How do I kill 3 Lanz before day 4? How the same deck will deal with Cesare on day 6? How can I counter RI? Will I be countered? Because solutions will all go the same way, and that's not good for the game. Sudden Exhaust is a necessity for instance. Counters or discard too. Necessities are bad for diversity. Think again about your suggestions, and repropose them again if you think they are too "selfish" or too blind to see the bigger picture. (not saying mine aren't btw ^^)
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Post by Tuism on Jan 29, 2012 12:33:51 GMT -5
I'm all for keeping flavour though, as much as we should/can. Do you think ezio is overpowered with threat? It's difficult for me to form an objective opinion when I haven't even got 1 copy of the bugger, and he's been broken for so long anyway I just think of him as the harbinger of doom, with or without the threat.
I think Maybe if Lorenzo became an activated ability: action: zero cost: if you have more than 20I, Lorenzo becomes 10/10, it would be more interesting.
Right now I'm actually thinking the income removal on counters will probably not be entirely enough... But let's see.
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Post by The Rancord on Jan 29, 2012 12:49:43 GMT -5
The income removal on coutners can be servere, when u dont have ure early forced inheritance. Cuase u slowly climb up, and use the income on counter to finally walk on a safe level.
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Post by Tuism on Jan 29, 2012 13:00:11 GMT -5
The income removal on coutners can be servere, when u dont have ure early forced inheritance. Cuase u slowly climb up, and use the income on counter to finally walk on a safe level. It's supposed to be severe. What gives order the right to not have to play income boosters like all the other colours? Remember a countered memory gives no income anyway, so it's EQUAL for the opponent. In that view, a counter giving a solve-all solution AND an income advantage is VERY overpowered. Nevermind the fact that order HAS King's Orders, Forced Inheritance and Faux Pas just in the 1 gold category, all GREAT income boosters. Forced Inheritance is by FAR the best in the game. It's time to give the level field a fighting chance. If Order wants to still field their full compliment of counters, they can do it slower, or with more income boosters, just like discard, just like all other colours.
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mana
Full Member
Posts: 367
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Post by mana on Jan 29, 2012 13:07:15 GMT -5
okay wow i read the thread and really was surprised... i am not used to such drastic changes when it comes to balancing. in my opinion the most important thing in balancing is to nerf and buff only slightly but if necassary multiple times in a row... so for example making animus reboot cost 11 and after reboot you have 2 inf in every region would be ok for me. right now animus reboot got really nerfed too much. 10 cost 0 influence is fine faux pas is fine as it is as everybody stated here dont touch it removing the +1 of counters is a perdect change for now! (new meta will show whether it was already enough of a nerf then) keyabilities on "bosses" should remain. i think the best way to deal with cesare is not to nerf him dead but to get more cards in other expertises which can effectivly deal with him. but until the next cards come out a nerf like removing official is OK. just give it back to him later i never felt like the X cards were too powerful exept for RI. it is too much to all nerf them by a half but here its worth a try. the only thing which shouldnt be touched is Daring Experiment. never saw it beeing abused. all the decks of the AI with DE always fail against my decks. when i started playing i though of DE as the best card. proved wrong... i got 3 of them right now and i dont include more than 2 in my decks. dont touch it! about lanz: the proposed changes are all fine but getting him to 5 cost is too much for the beginning. as i said before: nerf slowly but multiple times if necassary citizens wont be played anymore... you basically remove them out of the game with this change. maybe think about completely recreating that card? give them a discard effect like: the next card the enemy draws goes to the archive immediately ( ofc when launched this effext applies )
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Post by Tuism on Jan 29, 2012 13:25:11 GMT -5
citizens wont be played anymore... you basically remove them out of the game with this change. maybe think about completely recreating that card? give them a discard effect like: the next card the enemy draws goes to the archive immediately ( ofc when launched this effext applies ) I think in the right deck Citizen will do what it's supposed to do without being cheap - Even if he takes 2 cards out over 2 turns (3 including launch) it's a LOT. For something that's 3 cost it can come out in day 2 and grind away a few cards even before gold becomes freeflowing. Citizen should never have been used to lock, it's too cheap (literally and figuratively ) And if you really think about it, if cards get overnerfed, all it would mean is that we get a whole new metagame to play with - new strategies to consider, etc. And that's really what ACR should be about - playing the game, building decks, not repeatedly beating the same dead horse over and over again (same decks same cards same everything) I'm just GLAD that we didn't all have to now throw away all our cardboards and buy new ones to do that, know what I mean?
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Post by Diomedia on Jan 29, 2012 14:53:23 GMT -5
I like the proposals.
I don't play order so I'm only commenting on what I play .
Daring Experiment, I like this change , it means I can use it earlier on to draw a memory if I'm desperate. When i mainly need it in mid to late game , Im normally only looking for a couple of memories, I don't need to draw 10-15 If anything it can draw too many that you have to sift through.
Ditto calling all stand ins , it's a change but I don't see it as a nerf.
Lanz , I like the suggestion that he loses his thief status, ( personally I like him how he is now as i just steal and copy him)
10 cost agents, I only think something needs to be done to Cesare, he's too much as he is ,but I don't think he needs to lose all his abilities, maybe just one. I feel the rest are ok and maybe even a slight nerf to Cesare would Make the others more attractive to play.
Animus is fine as it is to me , but I agree it should be 0 score after reset.
My 10 pence
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