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Post by Top Shelf on Jan 29, 2012 15:23:03 GMT -5
The more I think about it the more I think all the changes are a good idea. Open up the meta for synergistic decks.
There is one other card I think could be a bit overpowered - what do you think of the safe granting order agent Dante? I think making him 0/2 might be a bit more balanced. Thoughts?
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Post by Tuism on Jan 29, 2012 15:29:28 GMT -5
Good point. Dante is a staple for a good reason, however I don't think he breaks the game quite as much... It's worth considering though... However on that very same train of thought, I don't see why Rare Art Merchant shouldn't be 0/3 instead of 0/2. Let's give media the same awesomeness as order, in their own way. Heck knows they need it (I need more decent Assassins to play with my Ezio besides thieves )
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Post by Raphael Majere on Jan 29, 2012 17:16:45 GMT -5
The more I think about it the more I think all the changes are a good idea. Open up the meta for synergistic decks. There is one other card I think could be a bit overpowered - what do you think of the safe granting order agent Dante? I think making him 0/2 might be a bit more balanced. Thoughts? +1
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Post by Tuism on Jan 29, 2012 18:00:34 GMT -5
The more I think about it the more I think all the changes are a good idea. Open up the meta for synergistic decks. There is one other card I think could be a bit overpowered - what do you think of the safe granting order agent Dante? I think making him 0/2 might be a bit more balanced. Thoughts? Alternative suggestion - Dante's broken because he can use his ability 3 times, not because he can block a 2 power and survive, which I think is fair. So how about making his ability cost 0/-2 instead of 0/-1? This way he can still block 2 power and survive but he can still only use his safe twice under normal circumstances.
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Post by Top Shelf on Jan 30, 2012 7:56:24 GMT -5
I like the -2 idea a lot!
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Post by crazygambit on Jan 30, 2012 9:45:57 GMT -5
Hey Marc! Everything looks fine but the follwoing two: - Lanz / cost 5 sounds too much for me. He's way too strong at 3, but he's still a 1/1 who gives no ressource boost when he arrives in play. And paying 5 for this, is only acceptable mid game. It would be, maybe more balanced if he costed 5 but also gives a +1 ressources (unless it's not possible for flavor/lore reasons of course). Another option, a bit more concept-changing, is to let him stay at cost 2 or 3 and to give his bonus to other thieves only and no longer to himself. - Lorenzo / with FIERCE I don't want to play him. I'm not sure he'll gain my favors without it anymore. I'd lower the proc requirement maybe by 3/4/5. So we can rely a bit more on him to be 10/10, with or without FIERCE. Great changes for all the other cards, specially counterspells and X cost cards. Making Lanz pump all thieves will just encourage everyone to play more thieves and therefore Lanz. I would hate to see the field awash in thieves more than it is right now. But yeah Lanz needs nerfing. I propose 4 cost... Think about it, for 5 you can get 4/2 threat in gold. Any colour could access that. I think instead of universally removing abilities from all bosses, the flacour ones still really should stay, so: Lorenzo FIERCE is a perfect fit with media. Ezio assassin shouldn't have fierce but should have threat. Da Vinci should have cunning but not fierce, Cesare should be official, and Rodrigo should have recover. Having them just plain 5/5s is a bit meh. I fully agree with your thoughts on the 10 agents. They're being nerfed too much. If you pay 10 for an agent it should be powerful, since there are lots of ways of dealing with agents in the current set. Giving each a flavor would be best. Cesare should have fierce instead of official though. To make blue a little less powerful. Ezio Auditore Da Firenze is gonna become really good though. On the Animus Reboot, I like the change. It's actually being buffed people. Now it ERASES everything. Meaning that Dante can no longer save that annoying Cesare. Silvio won't survive your reboot, etc. The 3 points in each region was useless anyway. It still took 2 5/5 attacks to get a region and Juno doesn't care. Also your opponent can't get his stuff back with Ancestral Discovery, which is nice. It's well worth the 12 IMO. The solution for Lanz is to make it unique (not in the magic sense, but that you can only control 1 at a time and the copy is destroyed). Lanz is perfectly balanced if only 1 is in play. It starts to become a problem when you have 3 or 4 on the board getting exponentially stronger.
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Post by Tuism on Jan 30, 2012 10:49:20 GMT -5
Oh shi- I didn't notice the bit about Erase. You're right that makes it very different - no more safe cesares, no more silvios, no more discovery retrieve (not that discovery won't be finding other targets to take). I like it - VERY much to flavour. Agree on Cesare with Fierce rather than official. Or else he'd have to be a 4/5 with official instead of a 5/5 Yeah Lanz shouldn't be a law unto himself - right now 5 copies of Lanz + 5 copies of Discreet calling = a good deck, the other stuff almost doesn't matter.
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Post by MarcUbi on Jan 30, 2012 16:53:19 GMT -5
Hello everyone,
Thanks again for all your comments.
After reading all your thoughts, here is the modified list of changes :
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Judgment Day 0, - When you launch this Memory, lose all your Gold. Target Site or launching Site gets +1I for each 2G lost.
Calling All Stand-Ins 0, - When you launch this Memory, lose all your Gold. Put a X/X virtual Militant with FIERCE in your HQ, if there is an empty slot. X is half the Gold lost.
Royal Intervention 0, - When you launch this Memory, lose all your Gold. Score 1 in target Region for each 2G lost.
Daring Experiment 0, - When you launch this Memory, lose all your Gold. Draw a Memory for each 3G lost.
Animus Reboot 12, - Erase all Agents and Sites. Your Score on each Region becomes 0.
Devout Citizens 3, +1, 1/1 Pay 3: Opponent discards his Memory with the highest Cost (at random in case of a tie). Launch this ability only if Opponent as a Memory in hand.
Pantheon 5, -, 1 Your Score in this Region becomes 0. If a player controls this Region, he wins the game.
Ezio Auditore, Assassin 10, -, 5/5 Neutralize target Agent or Site.
Rodrigo Borgia, Pope 10, -, 5/5 RECOVER. You regain Gold twice as fast.
Cesare Borgia 10, -, 5/5 Cesare Borgia resolves as a Surprise.
Leonardo da Vinci 10, -, 5/5 CUNNING. Draw 2 Memories.
Lanz 3, -, 1/1 THREAT. When Lanz scores, your Thieves get +1/+1.
Faux Pas 1, - Neutralize target launching Memory with cost 0 or 1.
Court Order 4, - Neutralize target launching Memory.
Preemptive Strike 6, - Neutralize target launching Memory. Draw a Memory.
Radical Demotion 3, -
Neutralize target launching Assassin Memory.
Against all Odds 3, -
Neutralize target launching Templar Memory.
Dante Moro 1, +1, 0/2
Surprise: Another target Agent is SAFE. Dante Moro gets -0/-1.
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X actions:
No change from the previous list.
(For calling all stands ins, the wording is different as I couldn’t really use the same sentence as the other but the functionality is the same)
Animus Reboot:
No change from previous list.
I feel that erasing all the Memories on the board is a good balance to the two other nerfs… And it suits the flavor better.
Devout Citizens:
I used the version that The Rancord proposed as it should be easier to understand for new players.
Bosses:
I got Leonardo, Rodrigo and Lorenzo their Expertise ability back (Flavor is important!)
In order to keep balance between Order and Crime, Cesare and Ezio don’t have THREAT nor OFFICIAL.
Lanz:
This is a tricky one. I certainly don’t want to make it useless.
This change should slow it down enough and give opportunities to the Opponent to block him, despite his THREAT.
Counters:
No change from previous list.
I remove the income bonus from all of them as a general guideline.
This means that Faux Pas will stay this way… But now, at least, it can counter the X actions.
I added the faction counters to the list.
Dante Moro:
I liked the (-0/-2) idea but being 0/2 actually made more sense in the general picture…
Tell me what you think about that.
We will try to implement those changes as soon as possible but if you have more comments, please, let me know!
Marc
PS: On the general “modifying Memories” philosophy, I’m not a big fan of perpetual changes. The goal is certainly not to update the Memories every two weeks.
On the other hand, being an Online game is one of the strengths of Recollection and it should allow us to keep the game as interesting as possible.
We will definitely try to have a clear system for those updates, should they become recurrent, so that you know what to look for.
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Post by Tuism on Jan 30, 2012 17:10:54 GMT -5
I like the Dante at 0/3 with 0/-2 ability, cos I really think he should be able to block a 2 power and survive to use his ability once but 0/2 is fine, no major biggie. So the two biggest expertises gets their bosses toned Ll the way down - fine by me. I don't think anyone's bothered to block an ezio assassin to care I love that faux pas can counter x spells - that's a stroke of genius (which is incidentally a magic card if anyone remembers) Lanz... That means In order for people to stop Lanz you'll have to keep sacrificing agents to it? I don't agree with this one, it still gives lanz massive card advantage. he will still just chew through all agents and end up unstoppable until/if you draw a removal solution. And site decks/agentless decks are just screwed. At least up the cost to 4? I think if you make Lanz exclude himself from the ability he will do what he's supposed to do - be a team player. So "all other thieves get +1/+1". So with 2 Lanz there's still possibility for growth, just not exponential like he is now. He is far from useless since he has threat anyway. All round great stuff. Looking forward to them being implemented whatever they end up being
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Post by xatria on Jan 30, 2012 17:41:58 GMT -5
With Lanz change, Sudden Exhaustion basically makes him useless (can't score with power 0, can't pump). Although I do like all other thieves gets +1/+1 instead but either one should be good enough nerf.
Actually does Pantheon really need a nerf? I think it's fine as it is now. The only reason it's OP now it's because of RI I think.
10-cost agents change looks good to me. So do all other changes.
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rav950
Junior Member
Posts: 106
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Post by rav950 on Jan 30, 2012 17:44:25 GMT -5
Hello everyone, Thanks again for all your comments. After reading all your thoughts, here is the modified list of changes : I consider almost all those changes very fair and good. I think it reigns in the early game power of X-cost memories while still making them terrific late game punches. The adjustment of Lanz maintains him as a threat on the board without making him as overwhelming as he has been, and taking Cesare down a couple notches is very welcome (resolving as a surprise is huge enough). The Animus Reboot change is perfect, makes it harder to use, and eliminates advantages of using it aside from the all important "saving my butt" function.
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Post by crazygambit on Jan 30, 2012 17:55:10 GMT -5
I'm not clear on whether or not the bosses lost Fierce or not. I'm hoping they didn't, otherwise they're pretty weak. Crap like Auguste Oberline is on par with the bosses now.
Also for flavor, remember Ezio Auditore Da Firenze has Fierce, it makes no sense that Ezio Assassin lost it. I'm really hoping it was just an oversight.
I'm a bit weary about the Lanz change. It's far too slow and weak after the change IMO. If making him unique is not viable for flavor reasons (The bosses are not unique, why should this be?) then giving the benefit only to other thieves like La Volpe (or to other thieves not named Lanz) does might work well. It forces you to actually pack thieves in a thieves deck instead of just 5 Lanz, a few Antonios and La Volpe.
As for Faux Pas, there's no reason to nerf this. It's by far the weakest counter blue has since it's very situational. Only good at the start, so it should definitely give income if you manage to fire it. Radical Demotion costs only 1 less than Court Order, but is half as useful, in fact it should give +2, certainly not getting a nerf (no one runs it because it's too weak already). That would be a good way to entice people to play those conditional counters instead of the much more reliable Court Order for example. In any case almost no one runs 5 Faux Pas and if they do it's not a problem at all. I do agree with the change to the other counters though.
In short, taking away income generation from full on standard counters: good idea. Taking it away from conditional counters: Bad idea. IMO they should give even more so someone would take a chance and run them. As of now (and after the change) there's no reason to run Radical Demotion over Court Order (unless you want to run more than 10 counters 5 CO + 5 Preemptive Strikes).
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Post by Tuism on Jan 30, 2012 17:58:34 GMT -5
A point to consider - with these pretty big changes being made to the memories, I think you guys need to somehow more effectively communicate this to people - existing and not existing players. I know that there is a little ticker in the main menu, and there are change notes that people can read in the app store, but honestly noone reads either of those things. Without REALLY clear communication a lot of players will get confused and potentially angry when their favourite cards are now "broken"... So while Recollection has been fairly low-key in marketing since inception (really has), you guys need to probably work on really getting the message out through as many channels as you can, possibly investing in some kind of proper marketing/PR (As nice as UbiGabe is *sometimes* he's not quite enough). Just think without proper communication we might see a lot of angry leavers who think the game's broken. Food for thought?
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rav950
Junior Member
Posts: 106
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Post by rav950 on Jan 30, 2012 18:26:05 GMT -5
Crap like Auguste Oberline is on par with the bosses now. Actually, at 5/6, Auguste would still survive most of the boss conflicts right now. Nobody runs him because he lacks sex appeal due to the fact that he appeared in our first sequences. But you were really happy to have him then, weren't you? He still has threat, and there is still a compelling reason to block him, and he's still only 3, I think its plenty good. Agreed on that.
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rav950
Junior Member
Posts: 106
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Post by rav950 on Jan 30, 2012 18:31:30 GMT -5
Just think without proper communication we might see a lot of angry leavers who think the game's broken. Food for thought? Um, it has been broken, quite broken, for a long time. Even 1.5.6 isn't a cure-all. I offer that those people have already gotten angry and left. I actually do read the release notes, and I look at the ticker. However, radical changes to card powers that are not bug fixes are worthy of a little more highlighting. A pop-up saying "welcome to version x.x.x, change list" would be a good idea.
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