rav950
Junior Member
Posts: 106
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Post by rav950 on Jan 30, 2012 18:42:54 GMT -5
With Lanz change, Sudden Exhaustion basically makes him useless (can't score with power 0, can't pump). Although I do like all other thieves gets +1/+1 instead but either one should be good enough nerf. Yeah, I see SE used more than most removal. Its really the only effective Cesare countermeasure, and its utility against every other beater makes it a near auto-include. It is kinda obnoxious to have it used against you... but its not OP either. SE makes Lanz, Copernicus, Corella, Alberti and Grimaldi all useless. I wouldn't remove it from the game, but I'll suggest it really belongs in purple? Unfortunately, there isn't any purple uncommon you could swap across for it.
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Post by Tuism on Jan 31, 2012 0:29:09 GMT -5
If you faux pas a crop, you'll be at a +2 income advantage. If you faux pas anything else you'll be at +1 income advantage. So it's at least as good as any income booster - situational, but to flavor. Consider divine intervention. That's 1 for 1 card, +1 income advantage, faux pas is almost the same. And faux pas is +2 if used on crops or dama rassa. Pretty good. Plus now it can counter big x spells. I think it's still if not more awesome. Would I run 5? Let's look at the meta afterwards and see. I agree that sudden exhaust would just be *the* staple agent removal in a new Lanz environment, which'll be more of an annoyance than break the game, but its still annoying and possibly makes agents overall very weak. Lately I've found that mr 5/6 whom i don't even remember his name has been very successfully used in many decks - its cheaper and will survive most boss fights. Now it'll really start to shine... Interesting shift. Not too bothered. In light of all these balances I just thought... Everything seems a lot slower, can we get a change to some scholar income boosters? maybe +2 for knowledge is power? or zero cost it?
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Post by Rob (Roebidoebi) on Jan 31, 2012 5:43:50 GMT -5
This whole balancing discussion makes me feel a bit uneasy. There is a lot of talk about removing powerful card options (and in the process severely slowing down the game). Game speed is very important for me as I like the idea that I can quickly play a 5 minutes game between my normal activities or waiting for the train (or something). This is a portable game after all! Another worry is loosing "flavor". I never understood why Cesare should have Fierce when no other Order agent has this ability. On the other hand if Cesare is no longer an Official, which Order agent should be? Cesare is a very important Templar card. It is more or less the only winner for Templar-only decks. To compliment this I'd say that when you have Cesare on the table you should not be able not play any Assassin memories anymore (like Ezio Auditore Da firenze). This prevents us from over-powered combinations like Cesare and Ezio in one deck and adds to the flavor of the game. Rather then tuning everything down, there are also quite some "unused" cards that are probably hardly ever played (you should be able to check the logs for that). On my short-list are: - Avaricious banker 10/+2 (Trader 7/4) - Why is there a "Trader" in the Crime section? He should really be switched with the Ruthless Robbers to allow for a Templar-only thieves deck.
- Teodora Contanto 3/0 (Courtesan, 0/4 - pay 2 and sacrifice an agent to neutralize target agent) - The costs are just too much to make this a useful card
- Fabio Orsini 5/- (Mercenary 2/4, all other agents get -1/-1) - Has anybody ever build a sequence with him included?
- Juan Borgia the elder 5/- (Priest 5/4, you gain gold twice as slow) - Again the price you pay is just too much
- Pagan high priest 5/- (Pagan 3/3, target agent gets -0/-3 use this ability only if opponent has no memory in hand) - Too limited special ability. Especially if the Devout Citizens are tuned down.
- Private study 4/+1 (1, each day opponent loses 1 in this region) - Too costly, too little gain
- Leonardo's workshop 5/- (1, when you draw a memory, score 1 in this region) - Just too expensive to play. It is a nice card though!
- Doctor's order 4/- (put target agent or launching agent on top of it's controller's sequence) - More of the same, advantages?
- Master architect, Master engineer and Gaspar de la Croix give benefits to the opponent as well. This makes them a high risk to include in your deck while they do take up valuable deck space. I have build a deck around them, but it does not win any games.
- Jacopo de'Pazzi (3/-, 1/1 trader. Jacopo has +1/+1 for every site you control) - I really like the idea of sites and agents supporting each other. But here the advantages are just too small
How about upgrading these to allow for alternative competitive strategies? Note that I do agree that some memories are OP. Please do remove the income boosters Courts Order and Preemptive Strike. Faux Pas should not be changed, as it a a resource booster that fits the theme really well and is very well balanced as it is (risk vs. reward). I don't think JD, CASI, RI, and especially DE are OP at the moment. They take a relatively long time to resolve and can be handled with. Regarding the Devout Citizens. Their only use is to keep the opponent from getting any cards. Removing the ability removes its use and I will not use it anymore. Maybe they should be changed in 0/2 or something to make them more vulnerable and less attractive? Ezio should keep Threat as most Thieves have it (flavor again). I do not think he is OP at the moment (compared to Mario). Otherwise just increase to costs to 12 or so. Rodrigo and Leonardo are fine as they are other than that they have non-fitting Fierce abilities. Maybe it's enough to remove Fierce from the big guys (other than Lorenzo) to keep them in line. I even think Lorenzo is underpowered at the moment. I have 6 copies of this guy and just can't build a competitive deck with him. I think the only real OP agent is Cesare and maybe Lanz. The last update on Lance is great. Only add +1/+1 when he scores. I suggest however that Cesare keeps his Official status. Maybe we should give all other bosses Cunning to allow them to block guys like Cesare (instead of the Fierce ability they have now)? Or make Cesare 4/4 - he is a bit of a looser in the AC world after all... I would still play him only for his launching ability! And regarding Animus reboot, I feel the changes are too much. I feel it is enough that the +3 goes. Finally PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE do not introduce the concept of "Unique" cards. If there is anything I hate it is having 10 copies of a Assassin rare memory that is less valuable than the average Templar common. Just my few cents... and very happy we get the change to provide this kind of feedback!
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rav950
Junior Member
Posts: 106
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Post by rav950 on Jan 31, 2012 8:52:49 GMT -5
Cesare is a very important Templar card. It is more or less the only winner for Templar-only decks. He isn't the only winner. He's extremely strong, but far from the only option available to make a winning sequence. Agreed on the first, never had one on the 2nd but I totally would run him, and agree on the third mostly due to Sudden Exhaustion being so popular in current meta. If they added recover, he'd be fine. And I think Recover is totally fair for him too. He is a very cheap early threat, and when they get that cheap they need some serious handicaps. The others I have no strong feelings about and think they are OK as they are. M:TG makes almost effects that force another player to discard a card into sorceries, and the ones that aren't tend to hit both players at the same time. They understand that if you can't draw cards, you can't play... and if you can't play, the game gets a lot less fun, fast. They can turn the late game into a waiting game that lasts several days as the controlling player waits for a kill card. Having them force discards when you have a card in hand will clear away counters, removal, and cards that they would rather wait for better opportunities to play. If they hang onto the card too long, you could still work the beginning of the day trick.
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Post by Tuism on Jan 31, 2012 9:30:11 GMT -5
If they hang onto the card too long, you could still work the beginning of the day trick. I thought about Citizens that way and I still don't like the fact that you can do this. I think him as an agent on the board and not a once-off action, shouldn't be able to launch to discard a draw, period. It's just too imba. If the opponent's stuck with an unlaunchable card (say A mob justice without a target or whatever) then they're screwed for new options.
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Post by setzer777 on Jan 31, 2012 10:20:52 GMT -5
Juan Borgia already has recover, which does make him pretty useful as a cheap threat. He pairs up well with Hard Worker or Pilfer Supplies.
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Post by Tuism on Jan 31, 2012 10:29:39 GMT -5
Juan Borgia already has recover, which does make him pretty useful as a cheap threat. He pairs up well with Hard Worker or Pilfer Supplies. When I first saw this comment I thought *omg no it's the TA troll* Then I realised what we were talking about I wonder how practical it is to get a Juan Borgia & a Rodrigo out to cancel each other out. Not very, at the moment.
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rav950
Junior Member
Posts: 106
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Post by rav950 on Jan 31, 2012 12:09:53 GMT -5
If the opponent's stuck with an unlaunchable card (say A mob justice without a target or whatever) then they're screwed for new options. More like Faux Pas, that would kill you. I don't know. I've stopped running them simply because I don't agree with discard locks. At the same time, it is a considerable threat and I kinda want it to be there. Here's the other idea.... *both* players discard their highest card. If you discard lock someone trying to ace their draw, you can ace your own draw just as easily. Granted, you have the ability to fish memories out of the archive... but it prevents the citizens from being a serious one-sided advantage. You can use it to maintain an established board advantage and win the game, but there won't be any long periods of activity where neither player is making progress. The popular discard cards are essentially 1-for-1 trades with the exception of the Mysterious Strangers, so making Citizens do a 1-1 trade isn't unreasonable at all.
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Post by Ringel on Feb 1, 2012 10:02:21 GMT -5
Discard decks are really strong, even without citizen. Faux Pas and Radical Demotion are one of the few ways available to race discard. I think you should reconsider weakening those cards.
Lanz is also useful for racing discard, but that's because he is just useful.
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mana
Full Member
Posts: 367
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Post by mana on Feb 1, 2012 14:49:29 GMT -5
ringel is right. court order and preemptive can get that -1 income but i would let +1 at radical demotion and faux pas. radical demotion is situational (i never thought of it as a too strong card) and faux pas is just useless without its +1 since it is only strong in the earlygame.
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Post by Tuism on Feb 3, 2012 2:48:25 GMT -5
I don't know why people are so adamant about this situational stuff getting +1I. It's like this - people are still running untimely end even if it's situational and incomeless. I doubt people will NOT run Faux pas because it DOES intrinsically give you +XI where X is whatever you countered. It's all relative.
And if Assassin decks become popular, I doubt people will stop running demotions, too. Just like untimely ends.
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Post by ericluah on Feb 3, 2012 3:27:11 GMT -5
most decks have a decent number of 0 / 1 cost spells either weenie or resource booster, divine intervention.
granted it's most useful in your hand at the start.
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Post by The Rancord on Feb 3, 2012 4:16:54 GMT -5
lanz is easy to counter, but if you run no Memories to handle him fast he alone will destroy you. And mostly the cards that are good against him, arnt that good against other cards. *Untimly end shines here* While cards like the surprise -0/-2 are good, they might be useless against other decks.
Any you need to have fast cards otherwise you probabaly cant react fast enough. But if you draw your fast answers later, they cannot harm him anymore.
*Also with counter backup cards like under arrest are useless.*
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Post by UnCL0NED on Feb 3, 2012 10:07:37 GMT -5
I see I'm a bit late to the party, but thanks to the devs for checking out this forum and checking with their user-base! I think a lot of the changes mentioned will indeed open up the game more. One of the things that concerns me is removing "neutralizing launching memories" from the text on "Animus Reboot". I think it will be even more overpowered than before, making it easier to play things like Carnevale and Calling all Stand-Ins simultaneously... Thanks and keep up the good work
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Post by Ringel on Feb 3, 2012 11:10:13 GMT -5
I don't know why people are so adamant about this situational stuff getting +1I. It's like this - people are still running untimely end even if it's situational and incomeless. I doubt people will NOT run Faux pas because it DOES intrinsically give you +XI where X is whatever you countered. It's all relative. And if Assassin decks become popular, I doubt people will stop running demotions, too. Just like untimely ends. It isn't the generic 1 costs/Assassin cards in generic decks I'm concerned about. Discard decks are very strong now and are only going to get stronger with these changes. The best tool I have are those situational cards-- cards that allow me to slow my opponents discard and ramp up to my own threats before Discard starts earning its card advantage. It is how my templar decks have managed to make it past Discard in the past. The cards aren't overpowered, so why not keep in the +1. Give Discard decks a fair challenge.
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