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Post by kwunyinli on May 24, 2012 21:48:11 GMT -5
@kwunyin Maybe I will save up for some Divine Intervention. That really jacks up the deck price. --S I would say, there is no substitute for divine intervention. I think if you lack the discard, sacred vision is the better route as it can find the discard and is cheap to cast. The bascilica Is rather slow. I would suggest you try putting the farmer and sacred vision back in, cut a Magnetic Personality for Clothes Makes the man since Clothes makes the man makes the deck a bit more aggressive. You can copy both discards and bombs to draw counters out. Clothes makes the man is also good to copy their draw spells. With four, you can play it much more aggressively. However, you will need Sacred Vision to dig for things to copy. There is also a higher chance you will open hands with nothing to copy, but I think Magnetic Personality is less effective in winning the game than Sacred Vision is. Recently, I won a game with a business light hand due to a well sculpted Sacred Vision. That card takes skill to play, but I think it's a necessary evil. If only it drew me one as well like Scientific Method.... You may consider playing a big site in the place of the purity Sacred Vision as I've found that having 3 is less clunky than having 4. |
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Post by kineahora on May 27, 2012 0:43:49 GMT -5
Dunno why u think favored, but ESR butcher is I think too fast for this deck when played with PP.
I had a guy with 3 Carnefices on me in like 3 turns. I had no chance.
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Post by kwunyinli on May 27, 2012 7:04:59 GMT -5
If you've played butcher ESR you'll know that deck is highly inconsistent. It has no way to find combo pieces and is very fragile because there is no other way to get the butcher out. So you got hit by a very corner case. Also, most competitive butcher decks only play 3 butchers so if you copy their ESR, they'll eventually run out of butchers. Besides this, you can race their fastest hand or strip them of threats with your discard. You can stop their attacks by flooding potential regions with your weenies.
The bigger factor in this match up is their inconsistency.
Edit: undefeated today. Kineahora, you have to get Divine Intervention. It makes the counter heavy match ups a lot easier. I beat 4 court orders on the back of 3 discard and a San Gimignano. Well, I have to give Sacred Vision some credit. It set me up to beat that counter deck.
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Post by kineahora on May 28, 2012 0:15:01 GMT -5
If you've played butcher ESR you'll know that deck is highly inconsistent. It has no way to find combo pieces and is very fragile because there is no other way to get the butcher out. So you got hit by a very corner case. Also, most competitive butcher decks only play 3 butchers so if you copy their ESR, they'll eventually run out of butchers. Besides this, you can race their fastest hand or strip them of threats with your discard. You can stop their attacks by flooding potential regions with your weenies. The bigger factor in this match up is their inconsistency. Finally beat the butcher once by outracing. Very interested to hear how the copy of ESR works. I tried that in 1 matchup, copying it twice. Then I played it on two Carnefices and not sure anything happened at all. What is supposed to happen? If they have no more agents, does it kill Carnefice or does nothing happen? They can get out a bazillion of them because after the first ESR, at least that deck I played just went wild with auxiliary ego and copycat. Made a ton of them. Anyway, I think if you can't outrace it, you are sunk--I've beaten that deck easily before with other decks simply by having a few official agents to block and delay--especially with Dante Moro, I make my official agent SAFE and then he gets to delay carnefice twice. Edit: undefeated today. Kineahora, you have to get Divine Intervention. It makes the counter heavy match ups a lot easier. I beat 4 court orders on the back of 3 discard and a San Gimignano. Well, I have to give Sacred Vision some credit. It set me up to beat that counter deck. I was poor today. Lost a lot. it will take me weeks to save for divine intervention. Beat 1 or 2 counter/green blues by getting lucky. I am sure the divine intervention helps. As of now if I get really lucky and get out Santa Maria del Fiore early, I have a chance. |
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Post by kwunyinli on May 28, 2012 5:09:18 GMT -5
Oh that's a shame to hear. If the butcher and Amerigo Vespucci are really becoming a problem for you, you might consider playing For the cause. I play tested it before, but my style just does not need it.
Well in terms of power this deck has very little. If the game gets pushed to late game, the deck pretty much relies on San gimignano or papal influence. Those two and Carnevale are arguably the power cards, but they are not that powerful in terms of the current meta game (field of decks). Usually if papal influence doesn't resolve then, I don't expect to win. It's just surprising,s nice I don't have that much trouble with butcher decks. If you feel that it's closer to even or unflavored i can change it. Maybe I was playing less competent butcher ESR players.
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Post by kineahora on May 28, 2012 10:40:50 GMT -5
Oh that's a shame to hear. If the butcher and Amerigo Vespucci are really becoming a problem for you, you might consider playing For the cause. I play tested it before, but my style just does not need it. Well in terms of power this deck has very little. If the game gets pushed to late game, the deck pretty much relies on San gimignano or papal influence. Those two and Carnevale are arguably the power cards, but they are not that powerful in terms of the current meta game (field of decks). Usually if papal influence doesn't resolve then, I don't expect to win. It's just surprising,s nice I don't have that much trouble with butcher decks. If you feel that it's closer to even or unflavored i can change it. Maybe I was playing less competent butcher ESR players. I did much better this AM: 10-2. Totally a function of how many expensive blue/green control, and big green hulks I face. This AM I faced two and went 1-1; victory by getting out an art gallery right away with 3 agents and I had a papal and a copy in my bag, before he got his draw going and he didn't have an espionage in starting hand or first draw or two. Well, jury's still out on butcher. There are several flavors. Basically I think the hardest by far is the blue flavor with its counters. Yes, if you can Answered Prayers their only ESR (like I just did a minute ago) you are home free. But that isn't easy because their decks generally have plenty of virtual agents to call up right away, and then ESR only costs 4, so I think it's rare to be able to answered prayers it away. Also it's being cost 4 renders it not too vulnerable to divine intervention. BTW when they fix the bug that causes Papal Influence to be immune to discard, this deck will get considerably weaker. Right now it's got big advantage over discard decks because of that, and it also really helps when your Answered prayers gets Espionaged back at you. |
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Post by kwunyinli on May 29, 2012 11:12:11 GMT -5
Haha, I don't know if it will get a lot weaker, I think some discard match ups are difficult. I don't really rely on the bug to protect me. That's why I play multiple win conditions and why I play 3x carnevale instead of 2. Discard decks usually lack power, so a bomb or two will beat them.
As for butcher, I've never really had a problem with them. Their consistency is really bad. Sure, I'd lose sometimes to Pantheon butcher or the occasional court order that I didn't expect, but when I see them again, I usually take a few games back, I've never fought a deck chock full of counters, but I've seen varients with a few court orders. That said, they still have not way of getting it, and I think that version is far weaker than copy butcher because of even less consistency. Counters have no place in a butcher ESR deck because there is no way to control drawing control cards like court order or combo pieces like ESR. I think the most resilient is probably the copy onces, and the ones that play pantheon. They try to race you, so they have more cards to do so. That makes them more consistent, but still, they aren't that consistent. It's very luck dependent, so I don't like it. I destroyed my ESR deck because of a lack of consistency.
I do like the Leo spam list n thinks forum, but even then, it's strong not because of ESR, but because of Leo and counters. I was undefeated again yesterday, but today I'm doing worse.
I lost to a rush deck for no apparent reason. I was just shooting my sites in the wrong regions and using Papal Influence on random areas. I also lost to a very expensive preemptive strike and scientific espionage deck. I kept a pretty good hand, it just didn't have any discard. Benevolent midwife couldn't find it for me. I was 4 damage away from victory even without discard,
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Post by kwunyinli on May 31, 2012 9:10:18 GMT -5
Updated the opening post a bit. With the new changes, I think the Order/scholar decks without Pantheon is about even now, I've been playing them a lot the last two days and I haven't lost that many. They win when I either start with a disrupt light hand or if we grind out until late game. Their In-depth analysis just take the game away. So far I'm really liking the divine interventions and I haven't felt like the shaving of Sacred Visin has lowered my consistency, I think it has actually increased it since there is more redundant protection against the Order/Scholar lists.
I have noticed that the rush match ups are a bit weakened probably because in the mid game, the discard is useless against a deck that doesn't have a hand. Sacred vision was used then to find Papal Influence, but overall, I rather have the resilience than the speed. This deck still isn't that slow,
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Post by kwunyinli on Jun 21, 2012 20:40:42 GMT -5
New update coming soon. The new cards are very interesting! Too bad it destroyed my investment in Divine Intervention.
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Post by kineahora on Jun 23, 2012 2:14:28 GMT -5
The biggest issues with this deck have been counter spells, followed by land removal. I know my replacement for Sacred Vision :-) p.s. it was so painful for me to buy another Divine Interventiuon Just before the update hit  |
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Post by kwunyinli on Jun 26, 2012 12:01:22 GMT -5
Yeah, sorry I mislead you. Do share your replacement. Yeah, I think that issue isn't that big anymore since the new update has implemented many things to fight the counter memories.
To be completely honest, my current list hasn't changed much, that's why I haven't updated yet. I'm still testing. So far, I've taken out all of the Divine Interventions since they are really bad against those new bombs the patch put in. I'm only running 6 discard now. My main issue right now is, I'm starting to lose to Official Decks and decks that abuse Threat, so I'm considering changing my removal. Everything else seems fine.
For the room that I made with Divine Intervention, I put in another big site. Now I'm playing with 3x Sans Gimignano and 2x Forli. It's been working out great, since Forli is a really good support card to both Sans Gimignano and Papal Influence.
I haven't had any trouble against counter-focused sequences lately.
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Post by kineahora on Jun 26, 2012 18:25:19 GMT -5
Yeah, sorry I mislead you. Do share your replacement. Yeah, I think that issue isn't that big anymore since the new update has implemented many things to fight the counter memories. To be completely honest, my current list hasn't changed much, that's why I haven't updated yet. I'm still testing. So far, I've taken out all of the Divine Interventions since they are really bad against those new bombs the patch put in. I'm only running 6 discard now. My main issue right now is, I'm starting to lose to Official Decks and decks that abuse Threat, so I'm considering changing my removal. Everything else seems fine. For the room that I made with Divine Intervention, I put in another big site. Now I'm playing with 3x Sans Gimignano and 2x Forli. It's been working out great, since Forli is a really good support card to both Sans Gimignano and Papal Influence. I haven't had any trouble against counter-focused sequences lately. I started out using Constantinople Galata district; it was great for a day or two--I beat all sorts of counter decks that didn't know what Constantinople was and kept trying to counter things and wondering why it didn't work. It was sweet. Then everyone realized what was going on, and it turns out counter is now stronger than ever, because of that new blue 2-cost counter land card, Suleiman, and several others. They just make sure they venezia my constantinople, or they can counter it even if I get it out pretty early. Plus it took space against non-counter decks. As I said, counter has been STRENGTHENED by the update, not weakened. Everything is faster now, so I think your old deck is now inadequate. And with Papal influence no longer bugged as unremovable, the deck is very susceptible to discard. I've totally taken out Papal influence and clothes make the man and am working with a deceptive land strategy using Incognito. Works well on San Gimignano and Art gallery, and I added some surprise lands that avoid counters--Yerebatan that also has counter ability, and Forgotten Asylum--problem is they are too small. I hope you have some better ideas. I wish Incognito were a surprise... |
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Post by kwunyinli on Jul 3, 2012 12:57:28 GMT -5
After some more testing, I think the deck has some significant disadvantages against counter decks now. With the discard bug, there is just no way to fight counter decks. This game is just too imbalances right now...
I'm continually looking for options, but without discard as an outlet to counters, it just seems impossible..
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Post by Tuism on Jul 3, 2012 13:16:22 GMT -5
After some more testing, I think the deck has some significant disadvantages against counter decks now. With the discard bug, there is just no way to fight counter decks. This game is just too imbalances right now... I'm continually looking for options, but without discard as an outlet to counters, it just seems impossible.. Eh? What discard bug? The papal influence bug is long gone. Discard has been slightly bashed by the new discard effect 11 cost cards, but other than that discard is still working, especially with a few new weapons like the mysterious stranger site  Although I agree that counters rule, it's not the traditional kind of counters now  |
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Post by Brontobeuf on Jul 4, 2012 3:20:22 GMT -5
I'm sure you can find a good new deck to share guys!
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