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Post by Ringel on Jul 11, 2012 15:29:57 GMT -5
I love Suleiman, Yerebatan Cistern, and Byzantine Ruins. I’m not here to argue whether or not they are over powered—if they are they can always be tweaked. Instead I want to explain why I admire the design of these cards so much.
They fit in counter decks, but unlike ordinary counters they move they game forward—once Suleiman is on the board the game is on a clock. Ordinary counters just keep the game in neutral. Neither side gets a piece on the board and the game goes on turn after turn until either the counter player gets a threat down, or the other player gets a threat past the wall of counters. However these cards now push the game forward.
Overall they are smart addition to the game, to help keep it from stalling out, but still allow for counter decks.
If they do decide to balance Suleiman or the others, and make the cards too weak, counter players will look elsewhere and thus the game will slow down again, which would be a shame.
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Post by Diomedia on Jul 11, 2012 15:48:42 GMT -5
He's good, but , I see court order, then Sueliman , I stop, and 9 times out of ten , we just sit there, because the opp can't play a card, cos he packed a deck full of counters, I quit those games after the first Sueliman, unless I get a Selim down 1st, and for that reason , I'm out!
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Post by The Rancord on Jul 11, 2012 15:51:47 GMT -5
Yeah sometimes its like this. U face a deck full of yerteban and seuleyman and loose, or u have only surprises and he looses
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Post by jeremyat on Jul 11, 2012 15:51:49 GMT -5
The problem with Suleiman (and to a lesser degree the Cistern and the Ruins) is that they put the game on the clock for your opponent. The cards are so powerful that you have to create strategies in every deck that's not a counter deck to have to deal with them. If you drop a Suleiman, I'm not going to be stop you because you're going to counter everything else that I throw at you. It gets to a point where you have to avoid playing your cards for fear that you're going to empower your opponent. Prior to this expansion, the only counters that gave you explicit card advantage were Preemptive Strike and Scientific Espionage. Both were always in the top 10 cards for that reason. Now, with the newest crop of cards, you can pretty much play a deck that is all counters and income generation whereas before you had to have some kind of winning cards that weren't related to your counters. I don't think it's helpful to make cards that put the clock on the opponent to keep beating their heads against a wall to figure out how to play memories that aren't going to result in instant threats for their opponent instead.
Personally, I think that Suleiman and the Cistern should be changed to flip their counters. Instead of countering agents, Suleiman should counter sites. Instead of countering sites, the Cistern should counter agents. That way, at least with regard to those cards specifically, they would not be removing the one threat that can deal with them. It's not a perfect solution, but I think it's better than nerfing them completely. Either that, or remove their ability to neutralize actions. I don't think there's anything wrong with Byzantine Ruins--the cost of that card and its easy susceptibility to discard makes it relatively balanced in my opinion.
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Post by Diomedia on Jul 11, 2012 15:59:55 GMT -5
It gets to a point where you have to avoid playing your cards for fear that you're going to empower your opponent This!
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Post by Tuism on Jul 11, 2012 16:28:23 GMT -5
Yeah. While I appreciate the point of keeping the game on the offensive for being defensive means that the games won't stall out, that doesn't mean the cards are balanced.
Yes we're not here to discuss balance, but how do we talk about "this card is awesome" without saying "probably too awesome"?
Suleiman is anti agent and cistern is anti site cos order can't kill sites and faith can't kill agents. Give them the ability to and guaranteed the factions will be better than they are now.
I'd rather have superb defense cards be offensively retarded than to give the game "faster pace" at the expense of overpowering cards. By that logic superb defense cards should all do influence damage to balance things out... Then we're back to power creeping.
I say Suleiman should be 1/2 at most and cistern 1 influence.
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Post by Ringel on Jul 11, 2012 17:09:47 GMT -5
Like I said, I'm not saying they can't be tweaked--> I don't feel like I can make that decision one way or another, but some of you are better at that than me.
However, I disagree that forcing the opponent to make tough decisions is a bad thing. Either way the game keeps going forward. I've played thieves vs. counters and had to decide whether to hold back or drop another thief, to be sure, but I don't think that makes for a poor game. I have yet to play the long drawn out games that occurred before the expansion, with the exception of counter vs. counter, but if you play counter, you make your own bed. And even then, counter vs. counter is faster than before. (wait... wait... Cesare->Sudden Exhaust-> wait ... wait)
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Post by Tuism on Jul 11, 2012 17:42:24 GMT -5
I don't think it's the making the opponent make tough choices that I've said is a bad thing - its the fact that for 1 extra gold, order gets a 2/2 agent on the table in addition to a counter that kills all but sites. Think about it that way. Thats a defensive powerbomb getting an offensive weapon. By that logic there should be a 4 cost magnetic personality that puts a 2/2 agent token into play, right? I'd say that magnetic fits a hell of a lot better than the order one, too. But hey I'm just voicing my opinion like yourself I'm going to make a game so I can one day make calls like this
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Post by Diomedia on Jul 11, 2012 17:58:45 GMT -5
To me , he is like an old style discard card , if I get enough pawns down on the table before the opp gets to 5 income , then , I can afford to sit there and just score 1-2 a go, while the opp can't play anything as he relies on counters.
Seriously though , I made a deck that laughs in the face of any deck where an agent is a key , even sueliman, why? Cos if you get Selim down first then Sueliman is useless, add Caterina to the equation then it means , Piri Reis, Ezio mentor , the gold and media agents, and most crime decks are easy wins , just sayin
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Post by Tuism on Jul 11, 2012 18:08:23 GMT -5
We can all say that we make decks to target another, and then how is it different from the days when we all played Lanz & Cesare or anti-Lanz & Cesare?
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Post by Diomedia on Jul 11, 2012 18:16:15 GMT -5
Well yea but I think suprise has morphed into a whole different animal now, its like you can't do anything without it, be it with Sueliman or Ezio mentor or assassins stronghold and the numerous other sites and agents, so if you want to compete you need suprise, counters are still prevalent as they are suprises but you cannot have any success without some form of making your cards uncounterable (with suprise).
Always now when I try to make a deck my first thought is , how do I make this uncounterable?
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Post by The Rancord on Jul 12, 2012 4:22:22 GMT -5
At least remove noble from him, so he cant be tutored
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Post by naz387 on Jul 12, 2012 11:05:27 GMT -5
I agree with the statements made by Jeremy and Tui. I think you are looking at it from only the perspective from the player using the counter cards. Sure it is "fun" to counter and get a scoring card on the board.
I think most would agree with me in that I would prefer being countered and the game being in a deadlock because the object is to win the game and I can not lose if he just counters me without scoring. Plus there is always the change that I will be able to get some cards down and win the game. But with these counter cards, I get to watch my cards being countered and then get stomped on by the site or agent.
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Post by TemplarTyler on Jul 12, 2012 12:36:11 GMT -5
With my own Order Agent Deck, I find that making sure you keep your early Teodor in place can keep Sulemain at bay... As soon as i realise that my opponent can do nothing, I know he is having to wait for me to make a move so he can checkmate my card, But cus Teodor is an early card you Should have him on the board before a Sulemain can be played... Then it is just bringing him up to strength. I find another good way (both with Site and Agent decks) is coax the opponent to use his Sulemain on your medicore cards... I usually make sure I have enough gold (When i realise/think Sulemain is waiting, and play say Knight Templar, or Carlo.. then drop in Leo or Lucrezia once the prvious card is taken out. Of course, you had to take into account his own gold and how fast he could drop two Sulemain's because of his own gold... so sometimes you play three instead.... Because once you are at that stalemate, they will pretty much take out your first card on the board, thats when you say 'Yeah? Here comes my real play' With Site decks i usually try and play an early Losing Faith to take out those cards, or make sure I have my own defenders (Learned Widow, Preacher and Pious Captain) So there is ways to move around Sulemain, and it is really a case of slowing down and being a bit deceptive. This works for me at any rate.
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Post by Ringel on Jul 12, 2012 13:19:59 GMT -5
I agree with the statements made by Jeremy and Tui. I think you are looking at it from only the perspective from the player using the counter cards. Sure it is "fun" to counter and get a scoring card on the board. I'm looking at it from the perspective of an avid card gamer! I play a wide variety of decks and do not lean toward counter decks over other decks. In the game, I don't like to be countered, I like to win! But from a broader perspective, stepping back from individual games, the counter+ piece on the board have made (imo) a better game.
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