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Post by Ringel on Jul 12, 2012 13:24:50 GMT -5
Well yea but I think suprise has morphed into a whole different animal now, its like you can't do anything without it, be it with Sueliman or Ezio mentor or assassins stronghold and the numerous other sites and agents, so if you want to compete you need suprise, counters are still prevalent as they are suprises but you cannot have any success without some form of making your cards uncounterable (with suprise). Always now when I try to make a deck my first thought is , how do I make this uncounterable? Keep in mind this many surprise options just didn't exist before. Counter was very strong, and the answers weren't so many.
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Post by Tuism on Jul 12, 2012 13:25:12 GMT -5
I just put Suleiman into any subpar unthought out no synergy deck and I'll win almost any time. In fact some people are forcing themselves into a slower more painful death by waiting for me to play something first so I don't have gold to counter with Suleiman. Thats the most effective strategy against him, if you don't have surprises. Does that "make the game faster" enough?
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Post by Ringel on Jul 12, 2012 13:34:33 GMT -5
At least remove noble from him, so he cant be tutored That sounds like a sensible nerf. I just put Suleiman into any subpar unthought out no synergy deck and I'll win almost any time. In fact some people are forcing themselves into a slower more painful death by waiting for me to play something first so I don't have gold to counter with Suleiman. Thats the most effective strategy against him, if you don't have surprises. Does that "make the game faster" enough? Winning with subpar decks is a problem with matchmaking. The strategy you describe is the basic strategy to fight any counter deck. Counter decks always slow down games. Just because you can fool them into thinking you are playing a counter deck when you are not doesn't change that. It is true that games would be a lot faster without counters (but less interesting in my opinion), but I would claim Suleiman and the two sites work to speed up counter strategies.
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Post by The Rancord on Jul 12, 2012 14:00:59 GMT -5
its just kinda stupid, that its effective to counter ressource boosters with a sulejman deck. Normally I have to balance the use of my counters, but with sulejman u can counter a buildup card, because u also deploying a threat.
Of course you can just play a deck thats good against that.
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Post by Ringel on Jul 12, 2012 14:35:44 GMT -5
I've countered my own resources boosters to get pieces into play-- which goes to show how these three cards speed counter decks up.
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Post by Diomedia on Jul 12, 2012 16:08:15 GMT -5
Yea I have seen that, like the situation I described before, I got 3 agents down fast , like to beat old style discard, and was just slowly slowly winning until he had to start to counter his own cards to get Sueliman into play... Lol
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rl
Full Member
Posts: 320
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Post by rl on Jul 12, 2012 17:12:02 GMT -5
either way, this whole counter meta sucks ass lol. It's been really boring to play and it has kind of turned me away from the game for the last week or two...
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Post by Tuism on Jul 13, 2012 0:27:19 GMT -5
The argument "because now counter decks can finish games faster" is a good thing really confuses me. It's really saying that you're happy handing a almost universal removal solution a bat at the same time is a great thing.
Again I make the point then there should be a 4 cost magnetic personality that drops a 2/2 token into play too, that would "balance" things.
I feel like there's power creep happening here.
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Post by The Rancord on Jul 13, 2012 1:06:15 GMT -5
Sulejman needs some sort of adjusting clearly. Whether rise its cost to 6, remove noble or something else, I feedl he is not healthy for the meta.
Counter decks that pack in all counters should have to make a balance between answer/counter/threats/income boost/draw.
Now by order of the kings/Sulejman is all together. *maybee not allways an answer*
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Post by demkon on Jul 13, 2012 8:30:34 GMT -5
Hm I must admit, I don't understand the problem. Just pack Piri Reis and/or the Anti neutralization site and you can laugh at most Suleiman decks. Nevertheless it's just boring to play an only counter deck. I have one for myself, but I only use it sometimes against people with stupid site decks, I lost to before. I also have another more refined Suleiman deck, which consists not only of counters but some other interesting cards. This deck makes really fun to play.
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Post by jeremyat on Jul 13, 2012 8:53:41 GMT -5
Hm I must admit, I don't understand the problem. Just pack Piri Reis and/or the Anti neutralization site and you can laugh at most Suleiman decks. Nevertheless it's just boring to play an only counter deck. I have one for myself, but I only use it sometimes against people with stupid site decks, I lost to before. I also have another more refined Suleiman deck, which consists not only of counters but some other interesting cards. This deck makes really fun to play. The problem is that you have to include these cards in virtually every deck now. Piri isn't even that great an option because he costs three and your opponent (unless he's been struck with a really bad draw) will probably get up to three (radical demotion), four (court order), or five (suleiman) gold to counter him before he activates. Let me put it this way. Prior to the expansion, I never had to specifically design my decks around a common threat. I could see agent rush, site rush, discard, counter, big sites, bad bosses, etc. Now, every deck that I build has to be designed to get around counters that place threats on the board because they're in virtually every single deck that I play against. Before Suleiman, that was not the case. It's a problem and it needs a solution.
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Post by Rob (Roebidoebi) on Jul 13, 2012 10:23:21 GMT -5
The problem is that Suleiman is too cheap. For 5 cost you get a 2/2 agent with surprise ability and a counter. Based on other cards: - The counter is worth more than 2 (compared to Untimely end) - The 2/2 Agent is worth about 3 (militia regulars, Vieri de Pazzi), a 2/2 with special ability (like Salai) costs 4. With already adds up to 5. So the fact that you get an agent as a surprise and need only 1 card instead of 2 is free of charge...
Of course his playability is is "limited" in the sense that your opponent must play agents or actions, but I have never ever seen a deck without any actions.
So he should either be 6 or 7 cost or be limited to agents only.
The same I think is true for the cancel-sites. They can be played too easily and are just too cheap for what they accomplish.
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Post by Ringel on Jul 13, 2012 11:19:31 GMT -5
The argument "because now counter decks can finish games faster" is a good thing really confuses me. It's really saying that you're happy handing a almost universal removal solution a bat at the same time is a great thing. Again I make the point then there should be a 4 cost magnetic personality that drops a 2/2 token into play too, that would "balance" things Did decks packing Magnetic lead to long drawn out games? No. So what's your point? There was no problem to fix with Magnetic. There was a problem with counter decks. On the other hand they turned the major drawback of the most efficient agent into a major plus, so maybe you do have a point. Definitely. Big site decks have gotten faster, you can give your whole hand surprise, you can drop 7 power worth of agents for the cost of 3. This set certainly has witnessed power creep, but I think that deserves its own thread.
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Post by Ringel on Jul 13, 2012 11:23:18 GMT -5
Let me put it this way. Prior to the expansion, I never had to specifically design my decks around a common threat. I could see agent rush, site rush, discard, counter, big sites, bad bosses, etc. Now, every deck that I build has to be designed to get around counters that place threats on the board because they're in virtually every single deck that I play against. Before Suleiman, that was not the case. It's a problem and it needs a solution. There were entire threads dedicated to managing counters prior to the expansion, only there were no easy one card answers. People said exactly that: All they seemed to see is counter decks (I disagreed then, I disagree now, but people play different opponents). If Piri was around many people would have auto included him. Any deck that couldn't handle counters before was not competitive. The method for handling counters were just different.
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Post by The Rancord on Jul 13, 2012 11:32:19 GMT -5
U dont need to handle counters. The thing is that counter handle you. I think a counter meta should stop at a point, where its effective to counter every single card.
If i have counterrd and need to carefully decide when to use them and when not, then there is nothing wrong with it.
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