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Post by Rob (Roebidoebi) on Jul 13, 2012 10:53:50 GMT -5
As everybody here knows does Piri Reis have the unique ability to turn all opponents surprises into normal actions. This is an ability that breaks decks and forces people to pack counters or other ways to remove Piri from the game.
I do not have a problem with adding answers to threats or strategies (that's the fun of the game), what I don't like is that you are forced include an answer to this specific card. I don't think there are any other memories that have such a dramatic impact on the game that require dedicated cards to deal with it. Stategies: yes, but cards: no.
Monteriggioni has a similar effect but effects both player (which is more fair) and costs a lot more (6 - which is twice the cost of a normal power 2 site).
Piri on the other hand seems to be the only real answer to the surprise sites with build-in counters and Suleiman. So I'm afraid the Revelations expansion breaks the game as these new abilities are simply too powerful.
Deception: OK Defender: OK Dominant: OK
Surprise sites with counters: NOK Suleiman: NOK Piri Reis: NOK Maria Thorpe: NOK
Rant-mode off...
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Post by The Rancord on Jul 13, 2012 11:27:54 GMT -5
Piri is annoying in combination with an all counter deck. I dont see piri that often, and he didnt cost me a game so far.
The sites and maria are fine i think. I mean byzantine costs 10 and maria is 11 and the discard effect is good, but not op. The combination with abazzi requiresnsome observation, but so far it didnt make to much impact, cept the thing that u dont know what kills ure cards, wich is not good.
Assassins is strong, but in game I was able to handle it most of the time.
I think constantinople is a good and fair anticounter card. Sulejman is simply sick *he is the only card where i would say for sure he needs a nerf* and piri affecting both players is a good idea. He should be that u can plan ure stoes better, but not that you can counter everything, what your enemy plays with sulejmans.
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Post by Ringel on Jul 13, 2012 11:35:10 GMT -5
Constantinople is a nicely designed card and an answer to counter decks that doesn't destroy other strategies. Playing Constantinople you will quickly discover it isn't the counter+piece cards that are the only threat in the new game. There are tons of pure surprise strategies that are quite lethal. If Counter+piece cards were the sole problem, the Constantinople would see more play.
Part of Piri's strength, however, is he makes counter decks stronger.
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Post by The Rancord on Jul 13, 2012 11:40:51 GMT -5
While surprise only strategies, are mostly strong, because they cannot be countered.
Constantinople would force ure counter deck to pack in answers against sites (royal decrees), because u handle them with ure big sites. This answers means u can pack in less counters, wich means that agent strategies u might just miss the important counter when the 2 altairs dropped, and are now drawing him cards. Wich means u need some agents answers as well, wich means a bit less counters. And then decks need to adapt to the meta with there counterdecks, instead of being good against everything but surprises
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Post by Rob (Roebidoebi) on Jul 13, 2012 11:41:43 GMT -5
Part of Piri's strength, however, is he makes counter decks stronger. Exactly my point! The card that was supposed to make counters less effective turns out to have the best synergies with counters hence making them more powerful!
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Post by Ringel on Jul 13, 2012 11:46:26 GMT -5
I could see making him work vs. both players.
But then we would have to find out if pure surprise strategies are too powerful instead-- there are some lethal combo decks that use surprise. Having an answer would be nice.
Combo decks need an answer too-- normally counter. Counter decks need an answer-- normally fast agents/sites. Fast agent/site decks need an answer-- normally combo.
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Post by The Rancord on Jul 13, 2012 12:02:11 GMT -5
Counters are of course important. Otherwise u play a rush deck, and a single wrath just wins the game.
Surprise strategies are not to powerfull overall, their strengh are counter (yes sulejman) and that they cannot be countered. If sulejman gets a nerf, those decks will be less powerfull, because port of their strategy is to make enemy cards useless, and their own counter arsenal gets a blow.
Also piri affecting both players, wouldnt stop the intention of him stopping surprises.
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Post by ironcladtrash on Jul 13, 2012 12:07:55 GMT -5
Part of Piri's strength, however, is he makes counter decks stronger. Exactly my point! The card that was supposed to make counters less effective turns out to have the best synergies with counters hence making them more powerful! I think it would be fine if Piri affected both players because making a counter deck stronger was probably not the intent. I love him and Constantinople. I hated counters beforehand but these new cards open the game up to so many new kinds of decks and strategies when you don't have to worry about counters anymore.
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Post by Ringel on Jul 13, 2012 12:11:35 GMT -5
Yeah, I have to admit making Piri affect both players would solve a lot. If that makes combo decks too powerful, then that problem could be dealt with later.
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Post by Diomedia on Jul 13, 2012 14:54:44 GMT -5
i pretty much agree with the last part of the OP, although i dont mind Piri that much, i guess it depends on your decks although i feel its all related.
i have found that i have to pack in more suprises now to beat counter heavy suprise decks, so this is why a Piri can make it seem a bit worse, if we get some adjustments to the more IMBA cards then i think Piri may be ok.
What im trying to say is pre revalations, the addition of Piri would have been ok, but now you have to include a lot more suprises than before , so its seems to mess the balance up a bit.
if anything im more for reducing the effectiveness of the other cards first and then see how he fits
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rha737
Junior Member
Posts: 100
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Post by rha737 on Jul 13, 2012 15:15:36 GMT -5
another easy solution would be to just make piri cost more. make him cost 5 and he can't get a first turn drop with PP, plus then the opponent can match that income with his out court order, suleiman, etc.
piri is only good because he is cheap to bring into play, meaning you can get an early drop on him before any decks can manage the surprise card portions of their strategies or counter the piri.
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Post by The Rancord on Jul 13, 2012 15:24:48 GMT -5
Ringel, this is a unrealistic scenario.
Not sure wich part u mean. But when i play a combo deck and i add piri its weaker than now. My enemy who plays with counters doesnt include piri and will counter my combo like he does now. If he plays no surprises and piri then, i see no way how this makes combo decks stronger.
The only combo decks i see are exit stage right, wich has no room for green, or any deck that uses one of the sites, that win games. (merchant, the maria chapel, castle st angelo, sacred ground)
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Post by Brontobeuf on Jul 13, 2012 18:47:34 GMT -5
Piri is a meta-definer card. I don't have a problem with him, but yes, I build my decks accordingly. I know that I have to deal with himsooner or later.
Scholar/Order decks are far from being the best decks of the meta because they just pack counters and Piri...
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Post by mistervader on Jul 13, 2012 22:21:03 GMT -5
I see Piri as unfun, but far from broken.
I guess the question is, do we nerf on the premise of unfun or brokenness? Piri is annoying, but I haven't seen him as the problem card, really. Suleiman is a lot more problematic, especially since the dude can be bounced at Surprise speed by Scholar.
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Post by IchiRomero on Jul 14, 2012 13:50:05 GMT -5
Piri is a meta-definer card. I don't have a problem with him, but yes, I build my decks accordingly. That´s the problem, Piri forces us to make anti-piri decks. the game is turning boring and repetitive. 7 of 10 decks that i meet are Piri (plus Suleiman). .... I found one that works against piri and other decks... but not agains sites, so now i need an anti-sites deck + the other decks that i already have. That means 10 Deck Lotery xD
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