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Post by Tuism on Aug 6, 2012 4:31:10 GMT -5
Cesare Borgia does pretty much the same thing as an agent. I think if the stronghold kills only one agent it'll be a fair change.
The surprise thing throws everyone off, but I think that IS the purpose of Surprise. The problem is the whole counter/anti-counter dynamic. Everyone will have to either counter or counter-counter, hence Piri and Suleiman and all the counter sites and stronghold etc.
I wonder what should be done to address the whole balance of surprises. I don't believe all non-surprises should be toned up, but rather surprises be toned down.
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Post by Rob (Roebidoebi) on Aug 6, 2012 4:37:29 GMT -5
Agreed, surprise speed is very powerful and that might just be the problem. I have no problems with Mario, Giovanni or Venezia. They are properly priced for what you get. But if I compare Mario to Suleiman you see what the problem is. Suleiman is just too powerful for its cost. And the same is true for the Faith sites and the Assassin Stronghold.
I did play you the other day while you were playing your discard deck, and there I faced the same problem I'm addressing now. Not only did you manage to discard every card in my hand, but you also got a board advantage while playing Underground Refuge and the Mysterious Stranger. I'm not stating they are overpowered, I just don't like the concept of these 2-in-1 cards as they are "must have cards" in a competitive deck and simply make the game more boring.
If you disagree, just exclude the two above mentioned cards from your deck and replace it with something else and see how competitive your deck still is...
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Post by Tuism on Aug 6, 2012 5:13:52 GMT -5
The same can be said with any other staple cards. Imagine any deck with out the top 10% of cards that are being played. It'd be a very different game. I *would* like cards to get toned down for a bigger field, but I don't think these couple of cards you're talking about can be singled out like that - take them out and see how your deck does - every single good deck will suffer from that happening Discard is also a special case though, cos there are actually relatively fewer good discard cards compared to almost every other strategies. Magnetic Personality? Scientific Espionage? Bascilica di San Pietro? Discreet Calling? By Order of King? Patronage? Just making an example Just adding to this point, the cards you specifically talking about are card advantage cards, which rely on a long game and the opponent not able to gain enough pace advantage. Pace advantage is also significant - PP decks have almost no 2-for-1 cards but they're really powerful. So, I have nothing against 2-for-1 cards, I have a problem with the balance of surprises
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Post by falkinator2000 on Aug 6, 2012 5:26:51 GMT -5
I don't disagree at all. These cards are the core of my deck. The entire deck is built around taking advantage of Mysterious Stranger. When the expansion came, the deck really took off because so many synergistic cards appeared.
My point is simply, that most decks need some source of card advantage. You can get card advantage by blocking a small agent with a larger agent, leaving your larger agent on the board. It's the same thing! The large agent can even block several small agents in some cases, for huge card advantage. That's just a different axis to compete on.
I agree that counters are boring to play against, and I imagine that my deck probably can be boring to play against (never faced a mirror match though), but I think that's more because it's frustrating to not have your deck perform the way you envisioned when building it, not because discard or counters are more powerful than other cards.
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Post by Tuism on Aug 6, 2012 5:40:24 GMT -5
Discard and counters are stronger than other types of removal because they largely bypass the remove agent or remove site or remove action paradigm that're in most removals. 10 straight up counters are easier to manage than 5 anti site and 5 anti agents.
But that advantage comes with a disadvantage that can be exploited just like other deck types. There are lots of counter hosers in the meta, not to mention the strong surprises.
So the balance has swung too much in favour of surprises, also that's because income generation has become very good with all the self-replacing options.
Anyhoo, this is a very complex problem, I wonder if we even know 50% of what we're talking about. The problem is the lack of a good competitive environment.
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Post by TemplarTyler on Aug 6, 2012 6:09:23 GMT -5
I think the biggest problem with suleiman is simply compare him to Giovanni and Mario... all three are basically the same (2/2 agents, Cost 5 and achive a memory); with the minor difference that Giovanni has +1 income and Suleiman has surpirse, so maybe it is that out of the three, it is more that Mario is underpowered? Don't get me wrong Suleiman is a bastard to deal with, I think Surprise itself should perhaps (in the current meta) add a lot to the cards gold price... But even then; Sulieman is more useful than Cesare; with Cesare you are paying 5 more, get 3/3 more but do not have counter. But even then Antonio is 2/2 threat 4 cost and archive any site its scores against... does that make it more useful than Giovanni? does that +1 income (and a One time effect) warrent it being 1 more gold than Antonio's continuous ability and Threat?
As someone said on another thread... you need OP cards, because they are the game changers... if all were the same power, then none of them can help to change a game. I think it is just getting a 'balance' of HOW overpowered or Underpowered (E.G Plentiful Crop compared to Holy Day) in other cases they should be. Counters are also a lot more accessible to new players... cus they are blue... and Blue is what all new players start their decks with.
(Also quick question has Lanz had threat taken away... its not on his card?)
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Post by Tuism on Aug 6, 2012 6:31:18 GMT -5
Lanz still has threat, it just doesn't show up in the memories page - it shows up in-game.
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Post by The Rancord on Aug 6, 2012 6:50:07 GMT -5
If u drop cesare u need half day to score. U can drop as just before new day to insta score.
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Post by kackman73 on Aug 6, 2012 11:54:49 GMT -5
In deference to the views expressed in this thread, I've redesigned my site deck to no longer have the card erasing site or Piri (I do still have two Y. Cisterns and one Byzantine Ruins, though - so... three counters, sorry).
Frankly, I'm sick of worrying about counters and counter decks, and Piri served no purpose in my red/green deck other than to prevent counters, so out he went. If I run into a counter deck, so be it. I'll take the loss and move on. At this point, I'd rather play cards and decks that I enjoy rather than worry about what others might be playing.
Oh, and regarding the Assassin Stronghold issue above: I think it's a bit unfair to classify someone who campaigns with two agents in the same region as not knowing what he's doing. If I have 10 in one region and have no concerns about losing it and you have 10 in a second that I can't possibly overtake, why wouldn't I campaign with two agents in the one contested region?
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Post by Ringel on Aug 6, 2012 12:01:21 GMT -5
I play counter free decks, but after an Animus Reboot or two I tend to return to at least a few defensive counters.
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Post by Tuism on Aug 6, 2012 12:23:55 GMT -5
Oh, and regarding the Assassin Stronghold issue above: I think it's a bit unfair to classify someone who campaigns with two agents in the same region as not knowing what he's doing. If I have 10 in one region and have no concerns about losing it and you have 10 in a second that I can't possibly overtake, why wouldn't I campaign with two agents in the one contested region? Er, cos you know that he has crime, 10 free gold, and you need both of your agents to win? There's absolutely no reason not to learn from your experience if you have been bitten before. Playing this game is just as much, if not more, about knowing than playing. Also, if you have something on the board when you know your opponent is full of Suleiman and yerebatan cistern and Byzantine ruins, DON'T drop anything until you force him to deal with what's already on the board. Just saying. It's easier to play smarter than to change the field
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Joek
Full Member
Also known as Ephemerial
Posts: 239
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Post by Joek on Aug 6, 2012 12:36:47 GMT -5
You know, there's a card that completely shuts down Assassin Stronghold. Pallazzo Della Signoria. Except you know, it's kind of useless.
(edit: this post was meant to be read sarcastically. Because Palazzo sucks.)
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Post by Educatedcollins on Aug 6, 2012 12:45:31 GMT -5
Unfortunately, that card isn't useful enough in all situation to warrant it use to play down in hopes of that he - doesn't play it before it fully activated - doesn't just change his strategy for a different region - blow the site up afterwards - play it (right before a day ends) for the 5 gold anyways
Assassin Stronghold can be used a multitude of situations while this card however, usefull if everything works out, is totally useless in other type decks, like counter or agent rush.
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Post by kackman73 on Aug 6, 2012 12:46:12 GMT -5
Oh, and regarding the Assassin Stronghold issue above: I think it's a bit unfair to classify someone who campaigns with two agents in the same region as not knowing what he's doing. If I have 10 in one region and have no concerns about losing it and you have 10 in a second that I can't possibly overtake, why wouldn't I campaign with two agents in the one contested region? Er, cos you know that he has crime, 10 free gold, and you need both of your agents to win? There's absolutely no reason not to learn from your experience if you have been bitten before. Playing this game is just as much, if not more, about knowing than playing. Also, if you have something on the board when you know your opponent is full of Suleiman and yerebatan cistern and Byzantine ruins, DON'T drop anything until you force him to deal with what's already on the board. Just saying. It's easier to play smarter than to change the field Good points. I do that already when I know my opponent has, for instance, Suleimans. I just refuse to launch agents or actions for as long as possible, or try to to bait him into countering something I don't care about to get through something that I do.
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Post by coolkendude on Aug 6, 2012 14:22:00 GMT -5
You know, there's a card that completely shuts down Assassin Stronghold. Pallazzo Della Signoria. Except you know, it's kind of useless. (edit: this post was meant to be read sarcastically. Because Palazzo sucks.) Palazzo Della Signoria is a great card conceptually but at best, it's a situational card. I've tried integrating this in some of my decks after being on the receiving end of Stronghold but it's too restrictive. I agree that currently, this card sucks. I don't know if they need to change it a little bit by either adding income to it or adding influence to it.
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