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Post by lurifaxb on Aug 13, 2012 4:38:36 GMT -5
I can't seem to find the threat about this.
Basically we need to know if you play cards like holy day or ritual sacrifice is it intended that if no cards are in opponents hand when the card "deploys" is it intended to be able to discard the cards drawn after it deploys?
Example
Ritual sacrifice is deployed.
Opponent empties hand.
Ritual sacrifice is finished deploying.
No cards can be stolen.
Opponents draws a new card
Ritual sacrifice can now target the card ans steal it.
This was not the case last patch. We have the league going and someone raised this as an unfair move. Devs, can you please confirm if it is an intentional change or a bug?
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Post by falkinator2000 on Aug 13, 2012 7:42:40 GMT -5
I would like to add the following:
I think this effect should be consistent with other similar effects ie memories moving other memories between different zones (my hand/opponent hand/archive/erased/my sequence/opponent sequence). There may even be implications for cards that normally resolve as surprises, but don't when case Piri Reis is out.. I am thinking of Scientific Espionage, but can't come up with a situation where this is relevant.
So: If Ritual Sacrifice should not be able to grab cards that came in hand after ritual sacrifice resolved (as it is now), the same should probably be the case for Holy day, Laboratory Research (memories coming into owners’ hand after resolution should not be targetable), Niccolo Machiavelli (same as Laboratory Research), Ancestral Discovery (memories going to archive after resolution should not be targetable), Benvenuto (same as Ancestral Discovery), and possibly Abbazia di san Mercuriale (but this might have other issues with Maria Thorpe that are more important). Quick Study, Family Heirloom and other tutoring effects are also on the list because of Incite Revolt (and possibly Leap of Faith). This interaction is already bugged, so might as well fix it “the right way”. Losing faith is probably also on the list of memories to check.
I believe very strongly that memories with similar effects should behave in the same way. This makes the game easier to learn. If this somehow creates a balancing problem, memories should be changed. Not the rules.
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Post by jeremyat on Aug 13, 2012 12:34:39 GMT -5
If I recall correctly, it has never been the case that ritual sacrifice (or answered prayers for that matter) would immediately go the archive if the opponent had no cards in hand. Instead, the change that was made was to the ability to steal/discard a card that was played after it was drawn.
As I stated in the league post earlier, I completely agree with Falkinator's points. Holy Day should work the same as Ritual Sacrifice, but it doesn't. They do virtually the same action but Holy Day resolves instantaneously if the opponent has no cards in hand while you sit in the carousel for Ritual Sacrifice until the opponent draws a card.
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Post by kackman73 on Aug 13, 2012 13:04:22 GMT -5
Holy Day has a separate issue in my opinion. For it to erase the 11-cost cards, you need to actually confirm that you're done looking at the hand. I think that it should erase the 11-cost cards instantly while allowing you as much time as you want to browse the opponent's hand. If you want to see what was erased, just check the erased cards later.
A few times I've found myself in the situation where I open with a Holy Day, and right after that my opponent plays a Bitter Farewell (presumably hoping to gain income from Incite Revolt), so I have to click confirm immediately or risk allowing him to gain the advantage of "discarding" his 11-cost card before I can erase it.
Erasing the 11-cost cards immediately upon Holy Day resolving would also eliminate the possibility for abuse. For instance, if I know my opponent is playing a Maria/Abbazio deck, I could play Holy Day, see that he plays Discreet Calling, then just keep his hand open until he chooses Maria Thorpe. If the erasure were to happen immediately, that wouldn't be an option.
Finally, as I mentioned in another thread, you can also turn this bug (exploit?) around if you want; opponent plays Bitter Farewell or Divine Intervention a little bit after you play a tutor card. You're planning to tutor something like Cesare or Hagia Sophia, but you'll lose it as soon as his discard memory resolves. So... you wait until BF or DI resolves, then you choose your tutored card. We probably shouldn't be allowed to do that either, but I don't know what the fix is - sometimes it legitimately takes a long time to find the card that you want.
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Post by Rob (Roebidoebi) on Aug 13, 2012 14:52:55 GMT -5
The way it is right now is consistent. Which doesn't mean that I like it though, but I feel it is the only "fair" way to handle it.
The only alternative I see is that you can only have the carousel open for - say - half a day. That reduces the worst kind of abuse.
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Post by falkinator2000 on Aug 14, 2012 0:34:48 GMT -5
I think abuse is a way too strong word to use here. Remember, as long as the carrousel is open, you cannot do ANYTHING at all. You can’t launch memories, you can’t campaign, you can’t block. Imagine a card that made me unable to do anything for a full day and stole the next card drawn by my opponent. That card would have to be REALLY aggressively costed to be worth playing. I think the main problem with Ritual Sacrifice is that you often THINK you have played around it by emptying your hand before it resolves. When it then steals a card anyway, well, that can be very frustrating. It’s a very swingy card, but it’s not overpowered in any way IMO. Now, frustrating cards are probably not good for the game, long term. But they introduced all sorts of counters with the last expansion, so I don't know if the devs agree  |
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Post by Tuism on Aug 14, 2012 2:53:30 GMT -5
My thoughts on this topic, since from ages ago, is as follows:
1) carousel cards should be locked on resolve. Ie no new cards should come in ever.
2) on that same note, when cards are removed, they should remain available for the carousel user to remove. When they get played and discarded, the effects are reversed (gold returned, effects canceled). This might be a massive technical challenge for the devs to overcome though, so I guess it wouldn't work
I think holy day shouldn't reveal opponent's hand but just kill 11 cost cards. It's not like this is a traditional game where people can cheat and hang onto the cards without showing their hand. That solves all sorts of problems and people moaning that holy day is imba.
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Post by falkinator2000 on Aug 14, 2012 5:27:18 GMT -5
That technical challenge is massive, Tu. It's pretty bad with a site replacing another site (or a surprise changing the outcome of a block and other basic interactive effects), but what if Monteriggioni is in play and I play a bunch of card drawing effects at surprise speed? You will have a massive chain of reversals to do. Plus you get an unfair advantage (oh, so your in-depth analysis would give you a court order to counter my launching Ezio? I had originally planned on taking your quick study, but now I will take the analysis instead and rewind your other play).
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Post by Tuism on Aug 14, 2012 7:25:37 GMT -5
Yeah I know, that's why I said its pretty undoable and I understand how it would be so. But I just think that's the fairest way. Otherwise I'll let the devs do what they think is best as long as they've duly considered it through all scenarios.
I do agree that all cards that do the same kind of things should behave the same way, like holy day and answered prayers.
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Post by kackman73 on Aug 14, 2012 12:00:44 GMT -5
My thoughts on this topic, since from ages ago, is as follows: 1) carousel cards should be locked on resolve. Ie no new cards should come in ever. 2) on that same note, when cards are removed, they should remain available for the carousel user to remove. When they get played and discarded, the effects are reversed (gold returned, effects canceled). This might be a massive technical challenge for the devs to overcome though, so I guess it wouldn't work I think holy day shouldn't reveal opponent's hand but just kill 11 cost cards. It's not like this is a traditional game where people can cheat and hang onto the cards without showing their hand. That solves all sorts of problems and people moaning that holy day is imba. Who complains that Holy Day is imba? PP->Niccolo->Odai, Bitter Farewell->Incite Revolt, and Abbazia-Maria users? |
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Post by coolkendude on Aug 14, 2012 13:11:53 GMT -5
Who complains that Holy Day is imba? PP->Niccolo->Odai, Bitter Farewell->Incite Revolt, and Abbazia-Maria users? Haha - good one. But I'll have to agree with Tuism that Holy Day shouldn't reveal the Hand, just erase the 11-cards. On a side note, this is the first time I've heard of imba (well, last month really) and because I'm lazy, I just made up a meaning for it instead of looking it up. I thought it meant "I am bad ass". I now know what it means (took a whole month to Google it) but I think I'll stick with my definition. |
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Post by Rob (Roebidoebi) on Aug 15, 2012 1:48:16 GMT -5
Who complains that Holy Day is imba? PP->Niccolo->Odai, Bitter Farewell->Incite Revolt, and Abbazia-Maria users? It's all risk vs. reward. It's pretty risky to run any of the combo's you mention. Parts of the combo might be missing or countered and your left with a useless half a combo. Holy day has zero risk and very high reward. You get to see the opponents hand, +2 income and may be able to erase 11 cost cards. And all of this for the price of... zero, nop, nothing! So that's what I mean with OP cards. Along the same lines Assassin Stronghold and Suleiman are also OP as risk vs. reward are not balanced... |
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Post by falkinator2000 on Aug 15, 2012 5:20:13 GMT -5
I think Holy day is perfect as is.
It is slightly slower than discovery/bitter farewell + incite revolt or other 11 cost card because of having to confirm the hand view. It is slightly faster than PP+Nico+Odai which needs 1 more card played (slower than confirming hand view). I argued in another thread that I think holy day reveals hand for balance reasons (making the card worse), I still think so.
Rob: Holy Day may be without "risk", but it is certainly not without downside. Holy day is a very bad card to draw midgame. I prefer my income boosts to come from cards with more upside - like Sofia's Office, Political Patronage or Divine Intervention. Or even Knowledge is Power (not a completely dead card in the midgame, only delays you for half a day).
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Post by Rob (Roebidoebi) on Aug 15, 2012 5:41:04 GMT -5
I love to draw Holy Day mid game as well only to get a glimpse at my opponent's hand, far better than the +3 you get from PP when you don't need it.
Don't get me wrong - I love this card - but I think you get too much for... uh, nothing really.
And I think it is far more important to have a well balanced game than a bunch of really nice cards.
In fact Holy Day could easily be split in 3 separate cards that are still valuable: Plentiful Crop, a card like Divine Intervention that would erase 11 cost cards, and a green 1/+1 card to show your opponent's hand.
Just my opinion...
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Post by ironcladtrash on Aug 20, 2012 20:22:07 GMT -5
If I recall correctly, it has never been the case that ritual sacrifice (or answered prayers for that matter) would immediately go the archive if the opponent had no cards in hand. Instead, the change that was made was to the ability to steal/discard a card that was played after it was drawn. As I stated in the league post earlier, I completely agree with Falkinator's points. Holy Day should work the same as Ritual Sacrifice, but it doesn't. They do virtually the same action but Holy Day resolves instantaneously if the opponent has no cards in hand while you sit in the carousel for Ritual Sacrifice until the opponent draws a card. Maybe we can get clarity on this. Seems like both cards should work the same. |
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