Doomsday and other imba cards

[lurifaxb]

Taking this discussion on a separate thread.

Concerning Doomsday: my point is that it should cost at least 10. Kack says lassitude, wraith and Should cost more too.

My point:
A late doomsday is fine. It is the early part that is imba. Stops the game before you had a chance to start. Mid/late game you can stop it. Play counters or at least have had time to deploy your cards.
With other discarders getting nerfed, income getting slower and doomsday staying the same, it just got a lot stronger. A lot. Cost 7 to remove all cards? It's pretty much over when it happens early, since you can easily follow up with a wrath of the righteous or other agent/site killers.

[ironcladtrash]

I think it’s the surprise Doomsday that makes it painful to play against. You could at least play some cards in hand if it weren’t for that. It was always possible to play early. Pre expansion I ran into a lot of first day 2 PPs and Doomsday. I had a deck before that did it with Knowledge Has a Price. But with everything getting nerfed and every other decent card costing more income to play, Doomsday probably should cost more. Now Slave Trade is so popular it would still be easy to do early. I have been experimenting with it myself a little as a defense and it is a little IMBA.

After seeing you Rob, and others talk about Forum of the Ox and getting killed by coolkendude with it, I have been playing with that card a lot. It is awesome but I think it is IMBA as well. You can play all of them in your hand at once as soon as you get to 10 income. I think it should be more like the thief Lia De Russo and only get half its cost back.

As far as the other cards they could probably be nerfed a little too, but not sure that would matter much. You could throw Easy Come, Easy Go in that category too but I don’t think I have run into anyone playing it. Those cards are designed to just wreck a certain deck type, and it seems the best decks anymore have answers for everything, and don’t rely on one strategy to win. But I guess that was probably always the case.

[lurifaxb]

Good points.

Doomsday just wrecks all deck types. Doesn't matter if it is agent or site based. The surprise part makes it even more imba.

Yes, I agree with forum of the Ox. Great card. But too good. The infinite income loop shouldn't be possible. Getting 5 or 10 back instead of all income would balance the card. I agree.

[jeremyat]

Yeah, I've got a surprise Doomday deck that I use for players who use strategies I don't particularly care for. When you can basically play a couple of income boosters and a secret door or militia intimidation to play it by turn two or three, it's pretty ridiculous. I don't play it much because it is so cheap.

[coolkendude]

Well, the thing with Ox and infinite income is that it takes a long while to set it up properly. The ideal scenario for it is to have Ezio Mentor, Gaspar, and Piri on the board. And then you must have the right support cards in your hand in order to support it throughout (Mario, Giovanni, Sci Esp). So it's not imbalanced in that sense because of the additional support cards you need in order to properly pull it off. It's different from the early Doomsday scenario you originally pointed out where that one card alone can destroy your whole game. I mean sure you can fire off a support card before Doomsday like Secret Door which costs 1 gold but I really think Ox's infinite income is fine.

[matavious]

What strategies have you all found to work best to work around DD? Outdraw? Rush? Counter? Discard? I keep running into day 3/4 surprise DD, making for some uninteresting games.

Anyone have a DD crusher?

[lurifaxb]

I can see both points to the Ox discussion. I still think that it is too much to be able to deploy a very powerful card and get all gold back. It's like a pilfer supply on crack. The loop is fine though. It just wild to be able to deploy Ox and then get Ezio mentor out.


I don't know if it is a DD Crusher but my counter draw deck does well against it. Get down agents fast. Get down ways of either buffing them or draw with Masyaf. If you get this set up, you are in a very good shape.

I would imagine a deceptive rush would be good too, or any good agent rush... Odai ftw?

It just seems like you have to play lame decks to beat the lame decks. Sad.

[ironcladtrash]

For Forum of the OX I just don’t think you should be able to play two 10 cost cards at the same time for only 10 income. I am thinking it should either only give you 5 back or its ability should only activate once it resolves. If Lia did what Ox does you’d see more of her played. I am fine with the loop on it because it’s not really easy to do. It takes a while to set up that combo and requires multiple cards.

Against DD you can’t really play the 11 cost cards against it because Holy Day is typically played with those decks. Agent rushes aren’t much better because they usually get Wraith of the Righteous played on them. Probably Lurifax’s Counter Draw, a Site Rush deck or sadly playing the same kind of deck against it. You could also try Piri and Scientific Espionage too.

[Rob (Roebidoebi)]

Don't see a real problem with the Ox. When you get to 10 income anything can happen really, and games can be over really quick. There are a lot of very powerful game changers at 10 income or more.

I agree with Doomsday though. Not that it is impossible to deal with (you can use discard, counters, draw, etc.), its just that this single card makes the game less fun. It is also very disheartening for new players.

I played a game against Tyler L. the other day. I think he only plays surprise doomsday. Anyway he was at 7 income, played Militia Intimidation (so I knew a DD was coming). I played a quick study (to make sure I would not be completely empty handed) and when it resolved I waited until he would play his DD before I would pick my card. Guess what... we both waited for two entire days and then I decided to quit the game. This is not the way I want to play this game...

[lurifaxb]

Doomsday should be cost 12. Like animus reboot does with all cards in play doomsday effectively removes all opponents play options from hand.

Animus reboot costs more. Also effects your own cards AND resets your scores. When you think about it that way, doomsday for a cost of 7 is way to cheap. Why even consider playing other discard effects?

A cost of 12 makes it target for discard, deploy later and makes own discarding of cost 11 cards less effective.

[ironcladtrash]

Nov 27, 2012 9:47:55 GMT -5 lurifaxb said:

Doomsday should be cost 12. Like animus reboot does with all cards in play doomsday effectively removes all opponents play options from hand.

Animus reboot costs more. Also effects your own cards AND resets your scores. When you think about it that way, doomsday for a cost of 7 is way to cheap. Why even consider playing other discard effects?

A cost of 12 makes it target for discard, deploy later and makes own discarding of cost 11 cards less effective.

I like that but take it one step further and make DD effect both players. Then you really have to strategize on how and when to use it.

[jeremyat]

Nov 27, 2012 9:47:55 GMT -5 lurifaxb said:

Doomsday should be cost 12. Like animus reboot does with all cards in play doomsday effectively removes all opponents play options from hand.

Animus reboot costs more. Also effects your own cards AND resets your scores. When you think about it that way, doomsday for a cost of 7 is way to cheap. Why even consider playing other discard effects?

A cost of 12 makes it target for discard, deploy later and makes own discarding of cost 11 cards less effective.

While I believe that the surprise doomsday deck is so cheap, I don't necessarily agree that it needs to be nerfed. In order for a surprise doomsday to work (and it needs to be a surprise to avoid counters and to maximize efficiency), the player must draw in his opening hand and first one or two draws enough memories to get to seven income, doomsday, and either secret door or militia intimidation to get it down fast. Furthermore, that requires three to four memories, at least, and you're down to zero gold once it's played. It's powerful, but it's not game-ending (just like you could recover from a turn-one doomsday before). Additionally, once you see either secret door or militia intimidation played, you generally know what's coming.

The sad fact is that nerfing every powerful card will just result in something else becoming more powerful and an additional broken combo being developed. Personally, I think that the mentor is ridiculously overpowered, since he can be tutored with a discreet calling, and he is far more broken than doomsday, since everything that you play is a surprise unless the opponent is fortunate enough to have a piri in play (which is usually killed well before the mentor hits the table). I would argue that he's so useful that he should cost at least 20 gold, if not more.

Here's the problem. Virtually every game-winning strategy is in some way or another "cheap." In my opinion, it's equally as cheap to surprise-doomsday someone as it is to endlessly cycle a lighthouse or a forum of the ox to end the game within a matter of seconds. Similarly, it's cheap to sit back and counter everything the opponent plays, and it's cheap to play a deck loaded with history glitches and animus reboots. It's cheap to play a deceptive rush that wins within a couple of turns because you drew a hand loaded with political patronages, darims, and magnetic personalities. It's cheap to surprise launch a forgotten temple, fire it off, and then launch an animus reboot. The only decks that aren't "cheap" are those which are straightforward, require slowly building an army, and gradually win the game. Those decks are boring, and they get crushed.

I say keep it the way it is or modify the cost of other cards such as the mentor. Of course, modifying anything would require the developers to be paying attention and planning something, but that's another topic for another day.

[lurifaxb]

I don't agree, but I like your are making your points heard.

Cheap decks in my book are decks that use unbalanced powerful cards. Counters before were cheap. Now they are more balanced. I don't consider playing counters cheap anymore.

Doomsday as a card I'm ok with, but is is too cheap. It ends games too early (despite that you state the game is not over, it pretty much is if the doomsday deck is built right). It leaves the opponent dead in the water. Totally without anything to do but wait and hope.
It does not take a lot of cards to pull off. You need 4-5 income and a surprise card plus a doomsday. That means two knowledge has a price and a surprise card. Card circulation and cards like quick study make this easier than you think. Or just wait a bit and get the income and then fire it off.

Ezio mentor is really good, but he arrives late. Late enough for opponent to have had a game chance. And he can be killed or stopped easily. I've won many games vs Ezio down without a piri.

Deceptive rush are also cheap as they end games too fast and are generally too good for their cost in my opinion.

I don't like the argument that if you balance something, something else will just be overpowered. With every balance tweek the game has gotten better. The early days were a mess compared to now.

[jeremyat]

Nov 27, 2012 14:16:47 GMT -5 lurifaxb said:

I don't agree, but I like your are making your points heard.

Cheap decks in my book are decks that use unbalanced powerful cards. Counters before were cheap. Now they are more balanced. I don't consider playing counters cheap anymore.

Doomsday as a card I'm ok with, but is is too cheap. It ends games too early (despite that you state the game is not over, it pretty much is if the doomsday deck is built right). It leaves the opponent dead in the water. Totally without anything to do but wait and hope.
It does not take a lot of cards to pull off. You need 4-5 income and a surprise card plus a doomsday. That means two knowledge has a price and a surprise card. Card circulation and cards like quick study make this easier than you think. Or just wait a bit and get the income and then fire it off.

Ezio mentor is really good, but he arrives late. Late enough for opponent to have had a game chance. And he can be killed or stopped easily. I've won many games vs Ezio down without a piri.

Deceptive rush are also cheap as they end games too fast and are generally too good for their cost in my opinion.

I don't like the argument that if you balance something, something else will just be overpowered. With every balance tweek the game has gotten better. The early days were a mess compared to now.

I disagree with the doomsday argument. Surprise-doomsday is a combo just like any other that takes time to build. If you don't get the necessary cards in your opening hand or the necessary tutors to get them, your opponent will be able to get his gameplan set up to try to beat you. You say that a good doomsday deck will wreck you once it drops its combo, but it's hard to craft a good doomsday deck that can get the combo out quickly AND can beat you before you recover. After all, you're going to probably be carrying four to five secret doors, four to five militia intimidations, five doomsdays, three to five tutors, and at least five income boosters just to start. You also need holy day to make sure you don't get screwed by doomsdaying a 11-cost deck. That's half of your deck gone before you even have anything that can be used to beat the opponent. My suprise-doomsday deck uses Hagia Sophia for pure efficiency, but there aren't that many other high-powered options out there for scholar/faith. I think you've got to put so much into the deck to make it work that it doesn't end the game as soon as you drop the doomsday.

I've won games against the mentor as well without a piri, but I've also won games where I've been surprise-doomsdayed, so I don't think that makes the mentor any less powerful or any less imbalanced. Your point about a cost-to-benefit ratio is well taken. The other memories that cost as much as the mentor are Il Carnefice and Manuel Pala...whatever. His benefits--to make all of your memories surprises, to have threat, and to be a 5/5 tutorable thief--are far greater than the other two (if for no other reason than they can be countered). Furthermore, he, and he alone, makes it possible for unstoppable loops to break the game. There's a reason why he's the most expensive card on the market right now.

Again, there's always the potential for broken decks. Before the last update (over two months ago now!), the unbalanced combo was maria/abbazia. Before that, countering reigned supreme. Before that, from my understanding (since it was before my time), Cesare/Lanz and Pantheon/RI decks were killer. Nerfing doomsday makes it easier for mentor decks to get the mentor down before he's discarded. Nerfing the mentor makes it easier for quicker decks to finish the game before the mentor is played and the combos are unleashed. Nerfing both will allow something else to rise from their ashes. And who knows what will happen if they ever release another expansion.

[lurifaxb]

Good points. Interesting argument.

It doesn't sound like you have met many good doomsday decks out there. Those decks stop the game early. Before they begin. If you have the patience to wait to draw a card every turn and somehow claw your way back, more power to you. The games I've played vs doomsday my agents I to deploy got wrath of righteous killed. Or they start to draw lots of cards and deploy sites.

And yes I managed to beat a doomsday deck as well by clawing my way back. Like I did vs abba Maria decks when it was really bad. Still don't make them fun to play against. And they are still "cheap".

Doomsday can be so fast it can't really be countered if the opponent gets the right start. Not fun. At. All.

If Ezio is a problem, there are ways to deal with it. Early Discards (he will get hit first due to cost). Piri. Having an agent killer ready. These things you can do. Doomsday On the other hand, If you don't have any cards in hard by turn 2-3... Well.



Oh and courtesan decks are boring too. Solitaire game. Overpowered, dunno, but boring to play against for sure.

All the earlier overpowered combos you mentioned were bad. That is why they changed them. Like they should with doomsday. But I doubt they will or are working on the game at all.