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Post by Rob (Roebidoebi) on Feb 27, 2012 8:33:46 GMT -5
I've been playing with the XLS sheet with all cards and decided to see if I could figure out the way the agents are priced. I.e. a standard +1/1/1 agent costs 1 gold.
So I subtracted +1/1/1 from all agents without special abilities and discovered that health basically counts as half (1 strength is as valuable as +1 income or 2 health).
Recalculating the gold-cost and rounding down where necessary I "discovered" that Auguste Oberlin and the Militia Brute are the worst agents in the game in terms of gold cost.
August should be priced at no more than 7 (6 would be acceptable as well) and the Brute at no more than 4 or 5...
And the best agent without abilities? The Dama Rosa of course, but already knew that!
Other expensive agents are: Poor villager, Papal Guard, Militia Captain, Francesco Troche, and Rich Merchant. All over priced.
Next step is calculating the values of the special abilities...
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Zed
Full Member
ACR NoobTuber
Posts: 255
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Post by Zed on Feb 27, 2012 9:22:05 GMT -5
i wonder how many games you could win in the same time its taking you to do all this math? keep doing it though I do find it interesting
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Post by Pete on Feb 27, 2012 9:27:22 GMT -5
Can you elaborate, i had trouble remembering all the values and tying up some of them to what you are saying. I need help.
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Post by Tuism on Feb 27, 2012 9:28:24 GMT -5
I always thought that's how it worked - basic builds and basic costs (2 cost for 2/1 or 1/2) with added ability (income, official, etc). But I think there's a ramp that changes value - as in the most expensive agents obviously are more expensive, but towards the late game you'd still rather have big overcosted guys than small undercosted dudes. Ability's "value" is quite subjective, especially for stuff that's non standard. Makes for interesting analysis
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Post by Rob (Roebidoebi) on Feb 27, 2012 16:04:15 GMT -5
Can you elaborate, i had trouble remembering all the values and tying up some of them to what you are saying. I need help. OK, "the basic agents" (like Capable Carpenter, Militia Pikeman, and Persistent Panhandler) all cost 1 gold and have +1 income, 1 power and 1 health (+1/1/1). I assume this is the basis. Now looking at someone like Brother Ristoro (+1/1/3) at 2 gold I deducted that 2 extra health is worth only 1 gold (so health counts as about half the value of power and income). Calculating these values for all agents I noticed it is pretty consistent. There are some small value differences like with the Militia Horseman (+1/4/2) which calculates to 4.5 gold (1 for the basis + 3 for power + 0,5 for health) but actually costs 5. Of course they rounded everything up or down to a whole integer value. Even the bigger guys still fit this picture. So there doesn't seem to be a real penalty for these. The Avaricious Banker (+2/7/4) only has a 0.5 variation and Agostino Barbarigo at (0/5/1) is spot on. Biggest differences are the agents I mentioned in my original post.
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Post by Ringel on Feb 27, 2012 16:41:27 GMT -5
Use this formula: Attack + Resolve + Money bonus - 2 or -3 if resolve is higher than attack. This hits almost every vanilla agent exactly.
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Post by Rob (Roebidoebi) on Feb 27, 2012 16:54:16 GMT -5
Now looking at special abilities it looks like Cunning, Official, Threat, Recover and Fierce are all worth 1 Gold. E.g. looking at Militia Patrolman (0/3/1) at 2 gold and Donato Mancini (0/3/1 - Official) at 3 gold this seems to be pretty consistent as well.
Of course there are some strange ducklings here as well. The Beguiling Courtesans, Ardent Actor, and Ercole Massimo all get their special ability for free. On the other hand, Petruccio Auditore, Francesco de' Pazzi and Il Carnefice are all too expensive.
Regarding all the other special abilities I will not try to value those. It's what they are worth in the game as a whole. Cesare's ability is worth 4 gold, but so is Lucretia's...
I would really like to see the "standard guys" that are over-priced fixed. I see no reason to play guys like Poor villager, Papal Guard, Militia Captain, Francesco Troche, or the Rich Merchant as there are plenty of alternatives that are simply less expensive.
P.S. I finally get why the Rich Merchant is "rich"... it's because he rips you off !
There also doesn't seem to be any relationship between type (Noble, etc.) or rarity in relation to cost. Which I think is odd...
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Post by Tuism on Feb 27, 2012 17:34:18 GMT -5
Rarity should of course not figure into how "cheap" something is - it means they can just make a +1 2/1 official agent cost 2 and just slap it in rare, which doesn't help anything for balance And I think natural affinities make things cheaper than counterparts, like for example ardent actor is fierce, which is naturally media. Yeah I think the "too expensive" just lose out, but I don't know, if they made every card "cost-effective" we'd get a lot of pretty even cards. I guess spamming income on the overcoats cards can work, though.
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Post by Ringel on Feb 27, 2012 18:35:13 GMT -5
My formula seems to hit the mark exactly for more agents. The problem is, in practice, defense isn't as useful as attack.
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Post by bradtastic on Feb 27, 2012 22:36:53 GMT -5
I think the 1/1/+1 for 1 shouldn't/can't/doesn't apply as it scales upward. I agree that the listed "overpriced" cards aren't great, but lowering the cost might make them too strong. Or maybe, useable. heh. Every CCG seems to have throwaway commons that no one with a decent collection will ever use.
MTG has cards like Tu mentioned, and have had that for a long time. Like Savannah Lions, W for 2/1. But I think stuff like Balduvian Horde (2RR for 5/5 w/ discard) are neat. Like Niccolo; really fast out w/ political patronage. Plus fierce! Brutal if the opponent has a bad draw or her/his sequence either ramps up slowly or is built w/out rares, Niccolo v 1/1 start of the first day...
1/1/1 for 1 and 2/2/2 for 2, but then it's like 3/3/+something less than three for 3+ and 4/4/+0 for 4+ and then cards like Ezio, 5/5 for 5 w/ fierce & faction restriction. Thus, a 5/5 for 5 or 6 without any ability might be too strong as a regular card. Then the 5/5 bosses are out of work because they aren't quick enough.
Wish we had enough players in major cities to have munches and meet-ups. presently its just friends.
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