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Post by fireonsight on Mar 29, 2012 22:24:53 GMT -5
Was thinking the possibility of a "mill" deck that runs the opponents sequence out of memories,making use of buried Cathedrals.
Other lesser mill cards include sacred vision, Pick your Poison, the Spaniard
it is light on agents with primary threat coming from Holy Calling and Benvenuto as we are grinding the opponents deck and hopefully he have useful cards. Doomsday is for combo with reboot.
2 Doomsday 2 Wrath of the Righteous 2 The Spaniard 5 Buried Cathedral 2 Novella Catacombs 5 Sacred Vision 2 Holy Calling 2 Benvenuto 2 Ancestral Discovery 5 Knowledge has a Price 2 Engineer's Workroom 3 Pick your Poison 2 Quick Study 3 Scientific Espionage 2 Lassitude 3 Tactical Upheaval 3 Sudden exhaustion 2 History glitch 2 Animus Reboot
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2012 23:22:03 GMT -5
been done twice. there is a deck exactly like this in cometitive section.
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Post by Tuism on Mar 30, 2012 0:12:09 GMT -5
Look for "deck destruction" in competitive
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mana
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Post by mana on Mar 30, 2012 5:17:21 GMT -5
okay just one input. why everyone thinks spainiard is a mill card? he is the exact opposit of that... just because you draw more cards in less time? think about it. following situation: you have a buried cathedral out on the field. enemy got nothing (doesnt matter here) and lets say he has also got no handcards. now a new day starts and everyone draws a card and the enemy loses 4 cards from his deck. that means after 5 turns the enemy has lost 20 cards and got 5 on his hand now you have spainiard and buried cathedral out. new day: enemy draws 2 and destroys 4 ( you can alrdy see it on the ratio : 1/4 in first case now 2/4 ).... after 5 turns now you made your enemy draw 10 cards and destroy 20 cards. that means he has 5 cards more in 5 turns to react to you while you destroyed the same amount! or said in another way: you made your buried catherdral half effective. when spainiard is played you could also say the game speed then gets doubbled (card wise) BUT the effects from sites dont trigger twice and agents cant attack more often. so actually spainiard is a strong card for control decks when facing rushes since the control deck gets more cards while the enemy cant score more often (with the same amount of agents) BUT thats not practical because of spainiards high cost. correct me if im wrong
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Post by Tuism on Mar 30, 2012 5:23:58 GMT -5
The fact is that having the Spaniard out adds 1 more card that the opponent has out of his sequence, and that translates to him getting decked quicker. Yes he gets 2 draws a turn, but so do you. And because the mill deck is built for card advantage - as in taking out more than 1 cards per one of yours, you should be able to keep the threat at bay while you deck him. So yeah, to me the Spaniard is a great mill deck compliment. In my opinion only
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mana
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Post by mana on Mar 30, 2012 5:46:00 GMT -5
but as you said the deck is build for cardadvantage. and spainiard isnt giving u any ^^ sure the enemy gets his deck emptied a tiny bit earlier but not faster in terms of cards. its hard to explain my thoughts but i make a diffrence between day/night cycle and gamespeed here. assume the enemy got 50 cards: with spainiard and buried catherdral empty after 50/6 = ~ 8 turns ( enemy has drawn 16 cards ) without spainiard andonly buried cathedral empty after 50/5 = ~ 10 turns ( enemy has drawn 10 cards ) i know this is not completely correct since i ignored the starting hand but it shows my idea. with spainiard you give your enemy 6 cards more to react than without playing him (in this example) THAT IS NO CARDADVANTAGE AT ALL ^^ when i face such a deck with my own control decks and my enemy gets out spainiard i only sudden exhaust him since i know hes making ME win it. i draw 1 more card while buried cathedral is only still triggered once a day... giving me more possibilities to get rid of it AND if not i still know i can in the end still get more cards. so in that said any leonardo is better here (also more defensive against official/unblockable rushes)
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Post by Tuism on Mar 30, 2012 6:04:43 GMT -5
The fact is that you get more cards out of the sequence - and because it's built for card advantage, I can take out 2 of his cards with 1 of mine. Or up even if it's 1 for 1 I'm cool with that. Even if I have no buried cathedrals out his sequence empties faster. Therefore it Synergises with the concept of the deck. The point isn't to make the game longer but to make the game end faster Again, it's my opinion
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mana
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Post by mana on Mar 30, 2012 6:25:48 GMT -5
yes effectivly it makes your game end faster but for the price of your beloved consistency because you give up some of your card advantage which can be desastrous against other control decks (i always exploit it) ^^ but i see your point^^ without cathedral it would be a really long time to make him run out of cards... still as soon as you got cathedral out you should make your enemy destroy spainiard since then he only buys you 1 round you make your enemy run out of cards faster.
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Post by fireonsight on Mar 30, 2012 6:32:26 GMT -5
Actually I was wondering if Novella Catacombs is needed in a draw deck. If the opposition runs out of cards 9/10 times you will win unless it is close, more fun to use Holy Calling or Benvenuto to get his 1/1 and win . Also seeing the deck destruction in comp, is scholar better or media? In media you get more resets and PP, but in Scholar you get more draws Engineer workroom ,quick study to get buried out faster,pick your poison for slightly more deck D,Scientific Espionage for more control
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Post by gamemaestro on Apr 3, 2012 10:34:11 GMT -5
My mill deck is red/blue which, similar to the deck above, is vulnerable to rush decks. I think the Spaniard discussion is an interesting one and I lean towards it being a negative. I like milling because it means I end up having less cards I need to handle, while Spaniard gives my opponent more chances to beat me. I think that in some decks the Spaniard could be a very useful addition, however, as he will create more consistency for your own deck. Really depends on how your deck is set up to handle what the opponent can throw at you.
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Post by madstryfe on Apr 6, 2012 2:47:38 GMT -5
This Spaniard theory is an interesting one, I'll have to try it in my mill variation to see if I like it or not.
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Post by Brontobeuf on Apr 6, 2012 4:48:12 GMT -5
Don't play the Spaniard in a mill deck. Milling a deck is controll. And in controll, you don't want hom to have more cards that will allow him to deal with your soft-lock or to propose more threats to deal with. A Buried Cathedral or two are more than enough mill power. You don't need to mill cards one by one at all. Trust me or test it, but in the end, don't play it in your final version.
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Post by jeremyat on Apr 6, 2012 9:12:54 GMT -5
I'm with Tuism on this one. I still pack five Spaniards in my deck destruction deck and there are multiple reasons to do so. First, he helps to run the opponent out of cards--the point of the deck (even if it is by one, sometimes it can make a difference in a win versus a loss). Second, he is a 5/5 agent and can get you to victory by himself (depending on what counters you run) or can prevent the opponent from doing so long enough to launch a wrath of the righteous/memory glitch/lassitude/wanted posters, etc. Third, he can provide you with extra cards too. There is no draw power in a faith/media combo (or a faith/order combo, for that matter) and if he gets you a buried cathedral a turn sooner than you otherwise would have, your opponent's got four more cards dumped into the archive. Fourth, if you're running a control deck, you need to have cards to control the opponent's game as well. Fifth, if you're packing doomsday (as I now do after the discard lock got broken by the last update), you can play doomsday at the start of the day and wipe out all of the cards that the opponent draws instead of using it as a one-for-one as it typically functions in the middle-to-late portion of the game. That leaves you with two cards drawn (or more, if you've got additional spaniards on the board) against none for the opponent.
Sure, there are times when you might not want to play the spaniard such as when you've got three cathedrals out and a wrath of the righteous or an easy come, easy go in your hand (depending on the deck you're playing against), but you're going to win that game anyway. My recommendation: play him.
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mana
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Post by mana on Apr 6, 2012 9:39:03 GMT -5
hmm jere i think you didnt understand the point of bronto and me at all... i only can agree on a single point with you and that is that doomsday discards more than 1 card togehter with spainiard even in lategame. i never thought about this and its actually a really nice combo! also with let he who is without sin.
everything else you said is exactly the opposite what i was explaining those whole posts before xD read them again and try to look at it more analytical
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Post by jeremyat on Apr 6, 2012 10:36:00 GMT -5
Mana...I read your posts and bronto's post before posting mine. I simply disagree with your analysis. I think you're approaching the issue from a perspective of making the deck a successful control deck or a card advantage deck. It's not either of those decks; it's a run-your-opponent-out-of-cards deck (I've got a paragraph on that in my post about my deck destruction deck). Every single card that gets removed from the opponent's sequence gets you one step closer to winning the game. That's why I like playing against a deck running scholar with my destruction deck (epsecially one that drops a last-chance daring experiment). The only thing I would clarify is that by stating that he could win the game by himself, I mean as an attacker. Obviously, he's not going to run the opponent out of cards by himself.
Trust me, I have run a deck destruction deck for quite a while now. He can be extremely helpful.
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