rav950
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Post by rav950 on Jan 23, 2012 20:38:09 GMT -5
1. X cards that directly score points need to be reigned in. Royal Intervention specifically, Judgement Day as a distant second since it has a land dependency. These cards need a higher base cost. I could see people still abusing them at 5, but that at least sets a more appropriate bar.
2. Pick your Poison is very undercosted, speaking as an abuser. For 3 get to filch the best card out of your deck, or maybe the one card that screws me. This should cost 5 or 6, with no +1. And I'd still run it. Its a very, very strong effect.
3. Clothes Make the Man is insanely undercosted, once again speaking as an abuser. It is one of the cheapest actions in the game at 2. It should be a mid-range investment, around 4. I've been using it to gain massive memory advantage in the early game in chains with In-Depth Analysis. Its a fun trick, but its too cheap to pull off and shouldn't be this easy.
4. Brilliant Burglary is overcosted. Economy denial should be viable, but this card fires off too late and there are too many early game effects that give you large economy boosts. This card should either cost 3, cost 4 and ding the opponent for -2, or add a +1 gold to its ability.
5. To go hand in hand with the above, I'd suggest a 1-cost 0/1 +1 gold thief agent "pickpocket". When it blocks, the opponent gets -1 gold.
6. Underground Passage is very overcosted. It should be 2 cost, or give an opponent -2 gold.
7. Collateral Damage is nice, but in many games its functionally useless by the time it gets out. I recommend changing it to "opponent gets -2 gold, opponent agents get -1/-1, opponent locations lose -1." This gives it a lot more utility while in keeping with the theme, and makes it a useful but not overpowered addition at 7.
8. Claudia Auditore's ability should resolve at surprise speed, like Egidio Troche. They are effectively counters to each other. Its OK for Claudia to pay more for the privilege though.
9. A site needs to be made that erases all cards in the archive as an anti-red open, and it should probably be a gold card since its likely to be universal as the game grows. My better decks often relied on fetching cards out of the archive to pummel my opponents with. While discarding might need a counter, this particular function is very unique to red and is a bigger thing to counter than "faith agents rest twice as slow".
10. Speaking as an abuser, discard effects should not be able to hit a card drawn at the start of a day. I can time my discard effects to effectively lock another player out of any chance of recovery, especially with Devout Citizens. This can just lead to long, unsatisfying games. Cards drawn at the start of a day need a 2 second "grace period". After that, they're totally fair game.
11. If I am playing Ancestral Recovery and my Opponent plays Doomsday in response, my Ancestral recovery should be negated. Period. As it is, I can sit, wait for Doomsday to resolve, and then select my memories safely. This is also abusable on Answered Prayers, where you can get it sit until the player gets a memory, and then force it to discard.
12. As an abuser, Animus Reboot should set you to zero instead of 3. If you hit the reset button, you shouldn't potentially get a benefit.
13. Crypt Della Visitazione is overcosted. By the time you've played this, you've already used every discard effect that's worthwhile or the opponent has played through most of their hand too. I'd make this a 3 -1 gold... most early game discard effects are cheap, so the -1 gold is your price to pay.
14. Any agent currently marked as "safe" needs an obvious, visual indicator since it persists til expended. I'd suggest a shield. Every ability could use an icon like this, but safe is the only one that I think really needs it.
15. Some sites should come into play and then resolve, much like a Knight Templar. I'll suggest that this would make Military Workshop, Basilica Maria Del Fiore and Market Street a lot more sexy.
Guess I had a lot to say....
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Baracus
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Post by Baracus on Jan 23, 2012 21:31:21 GMT -5
Great observations - good stuff! I think I agree with all, especially 14!
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Post by Ringel on Jan 23, 2012 22:24:21 GMT -5
If you make resource denial too powerful though... Lots of players play with resource boosters, but some don't.
I'd suggest something that counters resource gain rather than making resource denial too effective. Maybe a surprise that removes or steals the resource bonus from a launching memory, and is dirt cheap.
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rav950
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Post by rav950 on Jan 24, 2012 0:02:12 GMT -5
I could see that, Ringel, but it wouldn't address the surprises... and that's where the most powerful gains are. Denial should be workable all the same, as it is an unexplored but compelling mechanic. Its useful up til the 10 mark, and then rapidly diminishes in utility from there. So if you can't drop early economic denial, there's not much point to doing it at all. Which is why you see so very, very little of it in use... if its not in your opening hand, and cheap to cast, its a complete waste of a card. High Profile Assassination is the only card that does econ denial that's viable, and that comes to bear too late for most sequences. Corrupt Heralds do little more than maintain status quo unless you can get 2 of them out, and in the 4 slot for a 2/3 you won't get that often during the early game... and then they're easily chump blocked or neutralized.
Most of my thoughts arise from what I see people using and a desire to see some cards used more frequently than they currently are and perhaps a greater diversity of play. There are a tremendous number of potential card combinations in this game, and if more of them are viable then it will help the longevity of the game.
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rav950
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Post by rav950 on Jan 24, 2012 0:35:35 GMT -5
Some more
16. Obedient Priest should give target agent the recover ability until rested. Nothing else does this, and its a nice counter to all the cards that nail the stats on your hitters. Would make it something to consider adding to a sequence, even though it is easily nailed.
17. Role Reversal does the same thing as Power to the People, but Power to the People is a gold card AND costs less. Sure, Role reversal is a surprise... but you have to run purple to use it. Power to the People should cost more (and work consistently, its buggy), and Role Reversal might be more useful as "The site with the highest influence becomes 0". That way, you could at least ditch it for a +1 gold if you needed to. Purple isn't about sites, its about speed weenies, so this shouldn't come back to bite you in the butt.
18. Uberto Alberti should be a 2/3 and an official. Right now, you just chuck chumps at him to block him and he rarely activates his ability. Which I suppose is fine, because he's seriously buggy.
19. Francesco Troche needs something else to make him exciting. At least a +1 gold, but a +2 would be better. He's not a speedy threat, and he's very blockable, so he should be a gateway to bigger, better beaters. Blue doesn't worry about blocking as much as people worry about blocking blue.
Aaaaaaand....
20. Rich Merchant. He's not really that rich, at all. This guy should be a super cash generator. Make him 2/3, cost 5, +1 gold, and give him the ability to increase your gold by +2 in a standard half day on/off timing.
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Post by Tuism on Jan 24, 2012 0:43:32 GMT -5
Intriguing thoughts ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) If you make resource denial too accessible, it'll be way too overpowered. It is an interesting mechanism, but at the same time making collateral damage any better will make it a one-card win. Having been hit with 2 collateral damage before early game, I know. Corrupt herald and brilliant burglary with decent boost can create early deaths - with some luck in boosting. It's really the same as any other effects. Decks should work for their denial, it shouldn't be something that can be pumped out alongside lanz and cesare for fun. Clothes isn't really game breaking. It can be, but anymore expensive and it loses the utility knife value and becomes what copycat is... Kinda just sits there waiting for something big to copy. I like that I will consider throwing it at cheap cards early game and big cards late game. Discard is an interesting one... The discard lock I have seen working and not. I don't think it completely imbas faith... If you look at your balancing concerns, there are complaints at every color, which makes it all quite fair, doesn't it? ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) The safe agent symbol I've already raised somewhere. Completely agree. Although I suspect they hide it to include a bit of a... Surprise element. I suggest at the very least add it to a card's double tap to flip view so you can check it if you suspect it. I think "abuse" isn't nearly as abusive as you're making it out to be - for a card to be considered abusive, it'll be an automatic include in any deck of that colour. None of the cards really are that - except for Cesare, I would say. He's abusive. When cards are only situationally great, it's just a good combo card, and combos break REALLY easily, unless you build decks around it, in which case it'll be weak against something. Again, lots of interesting thoughts ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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rav950
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Post by rav950 on Jan 24, 2012 0:57:58 GMT -5
11. If I am playing Ancestral Recovery and my Opponent plays Doomsday in response, my Ancestral recovery should be negated. Period. As it is, I can sit, wait for Doomsday to resolve, and then select my memories safely. This is also abusable on Answered Prayers, where you can get it sit until the player gets a memory, and then force it to discard. Subnote, this should only occur when I have no cards in hand. If there are valid targets for the action in place, then it should resolve as normal. If there are no valid targets, then it should cancel my search action.
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Post by Tuism on Jan 24, 2012 3:45:49 GMT -5
Edited my previous comment with something about abuse.
I'd rather that not EVERY card is great - you'll find uses for them, but they're not going to all be useful ALL of the time.
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rav950
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Post by rav950 on Jan 24, 2012 10:08:45 GMT -5
If you make resource denial too accessible, it'll be way too overpowered. Having been hit with 2 collateral damage before early game, I know. Corrupt herald and brilliant burglary with decent boost can create early deaths - with some luck in boosting. It's really the same as any other effects. Decks should work for their denial, it shouldn't be something that can be pumped out alongside lanz and cesare for fun. Then perhaps an X card for gold, or opponent's income becomes 10. As it is, putting in enough denial to ensure I could get an engine going is ridiculously risky. Its very infrequent that you'll get that double collateral damage in the early game, and putting in resource denial cards also puts you another card away from something else you want. Its calculated mix, but cards shouldn't just become trash in the late game, especially something like collateral damage. Copycat is fair. Paying 6 to get a copy of a 10 cost card for 0 is still a nice bonus and justifies putting the card in your deck. Paying 2 to get a copy of a 10 cost card for 0 is criminal, since getting the 2 gold to pay for your copy is workable as of very early in the game. Perhaps Clothes could just reduce the cost of the copy by 2, down to 0 at the lowest. Still very useable, but not ridiculously cheap. There are definitely times when I've been happy to have that lock, but I know its a cheap trick. Discard effects are dirt cheap, and only decks that accelerate quickly can compete with them... and even then, its a challenge. You mentioned making resource denial too possible... well, card denial is already too possible, and should be reigned in just a little. I think that's more a factor of what's presently available to a player, since getting enough cards to have the option of making something an auto-include is a very pricy proposition. Pick your Poison is an automatic include for me. So is Scientific Espionage. I'd never run blue without 5 court orders, and I might even run 5 pre-emptive strikes if I had them. While everything has something that gets around it, black+purple has almost nothing it can do against a Pantheon- Royal Intervention Deck, black can target a resolving Pantheon and possibly kill it on resolution right before RI scores. Red has to get lucky with early discards crippling the economic/draw engine. There are loads of ways to deal with Cesare on and off the table... he's hardly broken. There are only 3 cards in the entire game than can stop Royal Intervention once it launches, and they're all mentioned in the preceding paragraph. Since so few players actually had access to most of those cards (two of them are rare assassin memories!), that enabled players with Pantheon decks to build a succession of cheap, fast victories. I'd call that a problem.
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Post by Tuism on Jan 24, 2012 10:26:52 GMT -5
I don't think every expertise must have a way to deal with everything else, that totally defeats the point of having 5 expertises. If you run crime/media then you'll have to accept that unless you whack his income down or win early you might get whacked by a 12 gold card. 12! Pick your poison isn't always auto-include for me. Scientific is only because of RI and combo decks. More often then not it sits doing nothing in my hand against site and agent rushes. It's insurance rather than abuse. There are abuse cards then there are staples ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) Staples are key to a colour's strength and without that strength that colour becomes useless. I think in general there's enough power in each colour to balance each other out, and if a card seems "overpowered", well you gotta ask yourself - are there decks running those abuse cards that can beat ANY deck? If there is, then sure we must take a look at the balance. Otherwise, I don't see what's wrong with strong cards per colour ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) But it's all up for discussion anyway, I think it's all good. I wonder what the devs are up to ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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Post by crazygambit on Jan 24, 2012 10:51:37 GMT -5
While everything has something that gets around it, black+purple has almost nothing it can do against a Pantheon- Royal Intervention Deck, black can target a resolving Pantheon and possibly kill it on resolution right before RI scores. Red has to get lucky with early discards crippling the economic/draw engine. There are loads of ways to deal with Cesare on and off the table... he's hardly broken. There are only 3 cards in the entire game than can stop Royal Intervention once it launches, and they're all mentioned in the preceding paragraph. Since so few players actually had access to most of those cards (two of them are rare assassin memories!), that enabled players with Pantheon decks to build a succession of cheap, fast victories. I'd call that a problem. I don't quite follow. You're saying Red is over powered because it has discard and archive retrieval and then that it's weak because it can't counter RI. That's a good thing IMO. In the current meta RI is more dangerous to play than to play against. Easy to counter, easy to steal. Scientific Espionage alone owns it entirely. I don't think it's a problem at all. Certainly doesn't need a nerf. Court Order, Preemptive Strike and Radical Demotion also get rid of it.
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Post by Diomedia on Jan 24, 2012 12:43:41 GMT -5
I agree about answered prayers. I've got no problem with playing against discard decks as it forces me to use a different strategy and think quickly. I don't think that as a technique it's unfair , however answered prayers for me is too easy to use. It negates the chance of a mistime or mistake from the discard player.
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Post by setzer777 on Jan 24, 2012 12:50:19 GMT -5
I find counters to be overpowered in general. Anytime I play blue I include every possible counter (and because they are rare this is a big case of buying power with money). I think they should just cost a tad more and never boost income, so that the incentive is to only use them against key cards rather than spam them against everything (since there is no disadvantage if they don't sacrifice card advantage or income).
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rav950
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Post by rav950 on Jan 24, 2012 13:45:36 GMT -5
I don't quite follow. You're saying Red is over powered because it has discard and archive retrieval and then that it's weak because it can't counter RI. That's a good thing IMO. Discard lock is bad, and archive retrieval should have a counter-measure available (even though many wouldn't run it). I forgot Radical Demotion. So if you're running green and/or blue you're possibly OK, assuming you start with more than one of the aforementioned cards in your hand. The other 4 colors (including gold) can't address it adequately. So when you're talking about current meta, you're talking about how people have responded by seeing a requirement for more counters.... which then spurs the "too many counters" discussion.
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rav950
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Post by rav950 on Jan 24, 2012 14:01:19 GMT -5
I think they should just cost a tad more and never boost income, so that the incentive is to only use them against key cards rather than spam them against everything (since there is no disadvantage if they don't sacrifice card advantage or income). I'll second you on the income except for faux pas, radical demotion and against all odds. Those 3 are highly conditional and can just as often sit in your hand. I've often faux-pas-ed my own stuff (too late to actually counter) for that +1 gold. I agree that preemptive strike and court order should remove the +1, because they are fail-safes and should be a choice you make instead of building you economy, not in addition to.
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