What is the best way of dealing with counter decks

[lurifaxb]

I'm getting hammered by high level players that play the same heavy counter deck all the time. When I see certain players who always play this I go for my own counter deck, but often lose. Especially per-emptive strikes kill me, since I don't have it to win the counter war.

But those games are also really boring. Over soon when the draw counter war is decided but drags on. Not my style either. I like to experiment.

What is your best advice to use? It would be nice with a counter-counter deck.

Last game I met a top 5 player and decided to try my kick and rush deck (see the forum for it). It actually work and I won by round 3 very decisive. Got out cheap agents, fast Borgia and rushed. 5-1 horse merchants by using TU sealed the deal before he could get the counters and draw going. Felt nice. But is there a better way? That tactic is based on luck of the starting draw.

I'm eager to hear your suggestions.

[rl]

outrush, outdraw, outcounter, discard his hand before he can counter lol... couple things but luck helps a lot in all of those things that you have to outdo your opponent. sometimes not much can be done though.

[lefthighkick]

It can be tough to beat a good control deck played by a good player who has access to all the cards. 500cr/day is awesome but it takes a while to catch up if you're not spending any $. I'm inferring that your card pool is limited, right?

There are legitimate strategies that give blue/green a good game but they require certain rares in order to optimize the decklists. Can you give us an idea of what your card pool is like?

[ironcladtrash]

I am so sick of counter decks. It seems almost everytime I play anymore everyone is playing a counter deck.  I have almost zero respect for those decks epecially the counter draw, anyone can vomit together a counter draw deck that is competitive with out even trying.  I have a discard deck made just for counters because I think it's funny when the opponent counters a discard action.  But I like to play other decks and experiment and I know some are weak against counter, but it would be nice if I played against non counter decks  more often. I think rl summed it up pretty well and definitely take lefthighkick's advice and post what your card pool is like. I am sure he and others can offer good tips

[nyxeus]

I hate counter deck too I played both you and lefthighkick in the past 2-3 days lefthighkick's deck is so strong and won the game easily. I hate SE much more than PS because the opponent takes your card and use it against you.

[Ringel]

I love counter decks, actually I like all control. I enjoy both sides of the fight-- playing vs. the counter deck and playing the counter deck. I also like other kinds of control (various flavors of green/black/purple) and rush, and even combo.

I'm less fond of discard though-- at least using discard decks doesn't seem much fun to me. I'm okay facing them.

The only deck I'm tired of facing, both because I see it so often and it feels too much like luck of the draw, is Carni-Exit Stage Right. Those kind of decks... inspire me to play counter.

[Altaem]

I loath counter decks. The best solution is to run 5 PP. Before I owned PP I would simply quit and look for a new opponent.
Even with PP I've bailed on many games as soon as SE is played.

The other option is to run a Continuous Threat deck. Keep the cards cheap, run minimum income cards and just keep hitting them with minor threats until they run out of counters. The downside is you'll fold more games at start due to useless hands.

Love ESR decks. Both using them and going against them. It's always interesting to see variants on what was my primary deck for so long.

[lurifaxb]

Lefthighkick:
My card pool is ok, actually. I just don't have any SE at all and only 2 PEs. That is why I can't beat fire with fire most of the time against counter decks. Also it ain't that fun. I more play experimental decks and try out new stuff.

Altaem, I agree. I think when people see a high level they bring their best deck - often counter.

In general I was hoping for a way to beat it. Like a paper/rock/scissors kind of thing. But from what I read, counter is just the best in the current meta.

But, what about the site that makes all actions instant. Is that viable?

[Tuism]

I really don't think counter is the "best" right now, it could be "consistent" but I've not played a single counter heavy deck in the last month or so, and I win a fair share.

You just gotta go in with an open mind and not think yourself to death. Often they have counters, but often they don't. It's more psychology than anything else, I think.

And of course a good rush will beat a good counter deck no problem, and consistently, too. But a good rush played SMARTLY will push the odds even more in your favour

And there aren't just 2 types of decks. My best are often income rush to defence to domination. With NO counters. OK I have to pack Scientific Espionage (guys please stop using acronyms so liberally, SE was usually Sudden Exhaust ), but that's it.

Have fun! Try different strats! My best right now are, in no particular order:

Big site rush
Discard lock (mehahahehehehe)
Bounce lock
Mercenary and Officials
Draw/offensive rush (Nicodeck variants)

and I play many many more. It's more fun to try things than not

[Ringel]

I agree that counter is definitely not the best in the meta. It is one flavor of many, and I hardly run into a full bore counter deck these days. I run into decks playing counters, of course.

Altaem: I like your ESR -> Caha deck you posted recently, though I've never run into it. I can't recall ESR resolving to anything but Il Carnefice.

Plus, most Exit Stage Right -> Carnefice decks play an array of counters, in my experience, so should make neither of us happy. The only reason I'm down on them though, is they are by far the most common deck I encounter these days.

[jeremyat]

The other thing that you need to do is play smartly. If you're playing against someone who's running order (and thus is likely to hold court orders and preemptive strikes) wait to drop something until their income is too low for it to be countered. For example, if they have six income and play something that drops their usuable income down to one, you know that you can play virtually anything that you want without it being countered by a court order since it will take the entire time your action/agent is launching for your opponent to get to the four income he needs to counter your action/agent. Also, unless they're playing scholar/order, you know they are getting the same number of cards you are. Just keep playing your cards and they'll probably run out of counters. Or you could just invest in a number of Cesares and play them.

[thest4lker]

If you have the cards then the swiped no swiping deck works against a counter deck (unless you get a bad draw). The key is to launch your memories only when you can copy them. So you launch PYP when you have 5 income, and immed. Play clothes, that way even if they counter you have another. You play Leo when you have 16 income and a copycat. And then you steal their SCI ESP/ court order when your income is low, and their pre-emptive when your income is a little higher.

If you are playing rush, a lot of counter decks pack counters but no anti-agent cards. A combination of Teddy/Dante/Borgia tower/dama rosa/PP/art gallery works well, you get down a bunch of cards before they can counter, protect them, and boost/score with sites, or boost teddy if they counter your sites. Or, as jeremyat said, use cesare for the same reason

Of try out counter their counter (not my choice)

[jeremyat]

One other thing--you can also try to think about actions that are surprises that the opponent can't counter. One of the reasons I run role reversal in my copydeck as opposed to venezia (or mob justice) is that it can't be countered and most big-site decks (I have one as well) run a lot of counters to protect the sites.

[graspbr]

rush and cheap threats. Their deck is ill equipped to deal with cards that slipped through the counter magic wall.

[lurifaxb]

Tuism, so which of your decks do best against a counter draw deck? If I meet you online, I can use a version of counter draw to test against you, then you can show me

I also play different decks and win most games, but the counter draw is what I find the hardest to beat.

I would like to try out a new rush deck. Any good suggestions?